Of course some campesino living in a shack would prefer even a housing project in LA. Many Africans would rather clean up after a fat cat, than die in some tribal or ethnic conflict, this hardly equates with loving or even liking America.

Clearly if I would rather live in LA than my own country, because of the insanity of life in my home country, I like LA better. That line of argument is just not worth tackling, from an objective perspective. It would be like arguing that the American Revolutionaries really liked being part of England better, but were tried of the oppression, so decided to revolt.

Or saying that folks who come get healthcare in the USA really like Canadian healthcare better, they just don’t want to wait 17 weeks, on average, to see a specialist.

Come on, does this sound logical to you? If we are so hated by “average people”, why do we have the highest immigration rate in the world? Why do people risk death crossing a desert on foot to get here or taking a rowboat across the Caribbean? This is silly.

If you want to debate whether Bush, Cheney, etc. are good or bad leaders, I’m there and I’ll do it all day long. But describing them as demons indicates no ability to have an objective discussion.

I disagree that the level of interest in emigrating to the United States proves much. Of course some campesino living in a shack would prefer even a housing project in LA. Many Africans would rather clean up after a fat cat, than die in some tribal or ethnic conflict, this hardly equates with loving or even liking America. Most people are not political, they just want to be able to live as good a life as possible.

The only reason I mention how much America is hated is my hope that someday, somehow, people in America who support current policy, especially around your policies in the middle east, will at some point wonder why you are so hated. You, as a nation have to reevaluate your place in the world, and most importantly you have to understand that as long as what 6% of the worlds people continue to use a vastly disproportional percentage of the worlds’ resources, obtained through force essentially, you will be attacked and you will be hated. Maybe this sounds like a viable plan to you, but it is not.

There are many polls on the subject of just how much THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT (not so much the people) is despised, I will leave you with this quote: “I have never known a time in my life when America and its president were more hated around the world than today. I was just in Japan, and even young Japanese dislike us. It’s no wonder that so many Americans are obsessed with the finale of the sitcom “Friends” right now. They’re the only friends we have, and even they’re leaving.” – Thomas Friedman, NYT

Personally most of the Americans I have met are just normal people, neither remarkably good, or remarkably bad. But your government? I think that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the people they work for… are demons.

(1) You say: “And America is most assuredly now the most hated country in the world, bar none. I am not talking about Western Europe in particular; have a look at: Mexico, South America, Asia, you know – the world. I don’t mean the world as shown on FOX, I mean the real world pal. The one it is no longer safe for you to travel in.”

And yet America still has a huge surplus of immigration from such places. So tell me why, if this nation is so abhorred, people flock to it?

(2) Yes, I have convinced quite a few people to change their minds. Everyone enters a discussion with preconceived notions but not everyone enters the discussion looking for a conflict. It is those people that are immediately either on the offensive or defensive that become impossible to convince of anything.

…how people who do not get all their news from Fox and right wing blogs feel.

I read the New York Times, WaPo, SF Chronicle, Wall Street Journal, Time Magazine on a regular basis. I don’t watch Fox News, and the blogs I read regularly are not considered “right wing” (Catallarchy, Samizdata, Cato Unbound, Reason Hit and Run, etc.). Just because we don’t agree with your position does not make us “right wing”. Just because someone thinks the US is something that you disagree with does not make them right wing. I am making an assumption that, by right wing, you mean neo-conservatives who support George Bush on just about everything when you say right wing. That is not actually an accurate meaning of “right wing”, but we won’t go there right now.

These photos are clearly photos of people who have been abused in an American run prison. If you like you can try to explain it all away – if you want. I would prefer to do the analysis.

Who said they weren’t? No one. What was said is that skepticism is part of being intellectually honest. Can you set aside your preconceived notions and consider the situation objectively?

And America is most assuredly now the most hated country in the world, bar none.

Do you have evidence for this? I can wave my hand in the air and make unsubstantiated statements too.

And finally, how many of you rightists are reading this and just praying I was in Abu Ghraib with a German shepard at my throat? How many of you thinking this are supposed to be Christians?

You also said:

I like to have my beliefs challenged, that’s why I am here.

Now, that seems difficult when you make statements like above.

But, I’ll try to engage you in a civil discussion.

1. I’m not Christian
2. I want you to remain safe, live in a stable place, able to do those things you want to do, say what you want to believe, act as you want to act, so long as you don’t impact my own life, liberty or property. And vice versa for me. If that includes saying things I consider to be wrong, so be it. If that means holding beliefs I don’t agree with, so be it. That’s what adhering to my own principles is about. At the same time, it doesn’t mean that I have to provide a forum to you, using my own money and time, to insult me.
3. I’m not a “rightist” in the sense that you mean it.
4. I didn’t say anything about banning, why did you?

See, if you would stop focusing on attacking people and start providing more than just unsubstantiated claims, we might get somewhere and have an actual conversation. Until then, though, it really isn’t accomplishing much.

These photos are clearly photos of people who have been abused in an American run prison. If you like you can try to explain it all away – if you want. I would prefer to do the analysis.

BTW Bret, “…I’m amused that you’ve somehow managed to justify your own US-hatred. That’s fine, but using a mixture of vague, relativistic terms and unsupported accusations isn’t going to sway anyone on this forum.” I knew going in that I was not going sway anyone. Have you ever convinced anybody of anything in your entire life Bret? I mean on an important matter that they have pre-formed opinions on? No, neither have I, but I keep hoping that the weight of all those bodies, both American, Iraqi, et al will crash through ordinary Americans rationalisations. What hope could I have in a forum where people look at bloody, broken bodies in an American prison, and then really really work at coming up with some other explanation other than the obvious one – that they were tortured or abused! Instead we get comments like: …is to be skeptical of the immediate conclusion reached about the photos. More specifically, to be skeptical of the conclusion reached by much of the world and pushed by the mainstream media.”

And America is most assuredly now the most hated country in the world, bar none. What are thinking of? Iran? Canada? Sweden? Oh, that’s right – it’s Denmark! I am not talking about Western Europe in particular; have a look at: Mexico, South America, Asia, you know – the world. I don’t mean the world as shown on FOX, I mean the real world pal. The one it is no longer safe for you to travel in.

And I don’t hate America. It’s your leadership. Most Americans will be deeply disturbed at what has been done in their names, that’s if they ever wake up and stop calling documented torture pictures MSM propaganda! I hope that someday you realise that torture, invasion for oil, and geo-political advantage, is anti-Christian, and anti-American (as espoused in your constitution and bill of rights – both fine documents). What I hate, what billions of people like me hate, is the neo-con junta that has hi-jacked your government to implement it’s plans for a new world order as outlined by PNAC.

I can also document anything I said about invasion torture etc. but why would I? Just read some history about Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia (millions – MILLIONS of dead civilians) Every day in Laos, someone steps on a American made mine left over from the illegal war in Laos. Read about Negroponte and what he did in South America. What about the Nagasaki bomb? Hiroshima is debatable, but why did you people choose to incerate another 100,000 people just a few days after Hiroshima? What was the point of that? The list of American atrocities just goes on an on and on. Of course some of these atrocities were good for American business interests and your oligarchy, even your people in a trickle down way – but don’t expect the rest of the world to love you for it.

And finally, how many of you rightists are reading this and just praying I was in Abu Ghraib with a German shepard at my throat? How many of you thinking this are supposed to be Christians?

No, I am sorry but America has lost it’s way. You are too close, too involved to see it. But the America you see in the movies is gone.

Ban me if you like, Eric. I have been kicked out of better places.

Gary, I’m the owner of The Liberty Papers. Before you post again, you might want to check our comment policy. Your comments about Kay and her children was way out of line. I haven’t taken any action yet, but another such comment will be deleted without warning. The use of personal attacks to try and discredit your opponent in a debate is a very common logical fallacy, but it isn’t a good way to convince anyone that you are correct.

You got it, Bret! I hope a few others have “gotten it” as well. It appears like a number of folks have migrated here to read – and as Gary is the only one who has come with negative comment, I can only surmise that others either agreed or decided it wasn’t worth their commentary.

First, I challenge your belief that the United States is the most hated country in the world. It certainly might be in Western Europe, but Western European opinion doesn’t even come close to representing popular global thought (if there IS such a thing).

Second, I’m amused that you’ve somehow managed to justify your own US-hatred. That’s fine, but using a mixture of vague, relativistic terms and unsupported accusations isn’t going to sway anyone on this forum.

Third, what I took away from the post (as I understood it) is to be skeptical of the immediate conclusion reached about the photos. More specifically, to be skeptical of the conclusion reached by much of the world and pushed by the mainstream media. Fine. To call Kay stupid because you disagree with this and then proceed to go on US bashing rant is off-topic. Simply explain why you think the photographs should be taken at face value. My guess is, judging by your use of epithets and usual left-wing memes, that you’ve never rationally debated anything in your life.

Yes, you are correct, I should not have called you stupid. I should let everyone make their own determination, based on on what you say.

I think the statement above and the people you have chosen to quote make it pretty clear whom you believe about the torture question.

Now you seem to be saying that there was torture, and that you would never have done such a thing. Probably not, but many would and did – it’s undeniable at this point. America invaded Iraq for reasons other than those stated at the time, and then proceeded to kill 30,000 to 130,000 Iraqi civilians, while at the same time, arresting and torturing untold thousands more. It’s war Kay, in a war, whoever is winning commits atrocities on the losers, it’s not particularily and American thing, except that you are so good at fighting wars in America, that you have killed millions since World war two. Always for good reasons of course. America is now the most hated country in the world. We did not just wake up and decide to hate America. America is hated because of their policies and their practices (invasion, exploitation, torture, death squads) and then worst of all – Macdonalds.

“You’re doin a heck of a job Brownie”.

I should point out that the Pentagon has admitted that the photos are real. The only question now is how you you can spin it away. Don’t worry, no one in America will remember in a week when Britney does something or other.

If you really want to know the truth, join your Army, then you’ll know. But hey you’ve got some fat kids to take care of right? Let someone else burn the Iraqis alive.