Comments on: They Came At Us In The Same Old Way …. http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/ Life. Liberty. Property. Defending individual freedom and liberty, one post at a time. Mon, 17 Jun 2013 22:29:16 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1 By: Stephan http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-862 Stephan Tue, 21 Mar 2006 06:43:49 +0000 http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-862 More importantly then democratic majority support, the plan cannot any longer take into account the varied value judgements and specific necessities of all the people living in such a society. the result is a collapse in all but the most obvious of goods allocations; ie: people need food, people need electricity. And even within the scope of these the how much and where of the matter is impossible to figure out by the planners. Hence widespread black markets, the natural survival mechanism of a planned society.

]]> By: r4d20 http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-830 r4d20 Fri, 17 Mar 2006 03:16:04 +0000 http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-830 Hayek nailed the difficulty with implementing socialism of any size. Before we can decide how to allocate resources we have to decide what we want to “do” with these resources, which is ultimately a value judgement – or rather, many value judgements that are all interlated. For example, deciding how many trees to cut is a balancing act between how much wood we need and how much environmental damage we are willing to do – and all of that is compunded by limit on the accuracy of our projections. Since each of us has a different moral heirarchy, we have different opinions about where to draw the line regarding various tradeoffs.

As the group increases in size, the number of potential conflicts increases exponentially and the probability of deadlock approaches one quickly – deadlock happening when no plan on what to “do” can get democratic majority support.

]]> By: Eric http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-826 Eric Thu, 16 Mar 2006 03:15:46 +0000 http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-826 I would wholeheartedly agree with you. I would, in fact, argue that at the level of social structure where everyone knows each other, communal economic structures will work best. Market structures will not work well at that level, if at all. The Jewish Kibbutz is a perfectly valid example of a functioning socialism. I suspect, although I’m not sure I’ve got enough data to go on, that the primary reason for the dysfunctionality of larger socialisms is exactly what you posit Stephan.

]]> By: Stephan http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-825 Stephan Thu, 16 Mar 2006 01:55:13 +0000 http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-825 The only cases of functioning socialism that seem to be practically possible are small unit structures, such as the family structure, or hutterite and Jewish communes. That sort of thing. I personally believe that the only reason that these are capable of functioning is due to the fact that they are small bodies in which all participants know each other. Thus, the problem of economic calculation is very small or nonexistant. Furthermore, in these little structures there is little room for the sort of tragedy of the commons that exists commonly under largescale socialism. Since everyone knows each other the moral and social pressure to not take advantage of the system is very small. Hows that Eric?

]]> By: Eric http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-823 Eric Wed, 15 Mar 2006 06:55:44 +0000 http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-823 Sorry Stephan, what I was trying to get at is that I can point to actual capitalism in action, functioning the way we would predict it to function. The Left cannot point to actual socialism in action, functioning as they predict it to. We can see plenty of cases where it functions completely dysfunctionally, as you point out. But, try to find an example above the level of a few people where socialism works as predicted, or even close to it.

If someone can show me one, I’d love to discuss it.

]]> By: Stephan http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-822 Stephan Wed, 15 Mar 2006 05:10:54 +0000 http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-822 I meant economic

]]> By: Stephan http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-821 Stephan Wed, 15 Mar 2006 05:10:07 +0000 http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-821 A functioning socialism is exactly what most communist states turn into. Given the nature of humans, the socialism that Marx proposed results in all those wonderful things that we see coming out of the communist states; famine, mass murder, poverty, ecomonic collapse, overwhelming scarcity coupled with uselelss abundance. Socialmism functions exactly as it should, given reality, wherever it is implemented. The same holds true for market systems. Since thay take the reality of human nature into account far better, they work far more optimally.

]]> By: Sean Lynch http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-819 Sean Lynch Wed, 15 Mar 2006 03:23:21 +0000 http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-819 I linked to this post from Catallarchy, but I had trackbacked once with a broken title and it won’t send a second trackback :)

]]> By: Eric http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-818 Eric Tue, 14 Mar 2006 23:32:19 +0000 http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-818 In my opinion corporatism is the historical successor to mercantilism. Corporatism encapsulates some of the ideas of capitalism to transition from the zero sum ideas of mercantilism to a more modern, but still state centric, approach to trade, industry and economics.

]]> By: Sean Lynch http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-817 Sean Lynch Tue, 14 Mar 2006 22:20:54 +0000 http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-817 Spot on again, Eric! “Corporatism” should be an everyday part of the libertarian capitalist vocabulary, perhaps replacing “mercantilism.”

Speaking of mercantalism, do you think corporatism and mercantilism are the same thing? If not, how are they different? I’m remembering for example the East India Company.

]]> By: Eric http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-814 Eric Tue, 14 Mar 2006 06:31:54 +0000 http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-814 Eugene, I can point to actual capitalism (as opposed to corporatism) in action and functioning. It is, of course, almost all extra-political. Can you point to functioning socialisms? I’d love to have one pointed out to me to discuss.

P.S. I like Heinlein because 1) He wrote some great stories 2) He used a fantastic setting to explore issues within the world we inhabit. I’m not silly enough to think that his books are real, or even could be real.

]]> By: Robert http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-813 Robert Mon, 13 Mar 2006 23:08:26 +0000 http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-813 For the record, the passage that I quoted in my comment was from this piece, which you quoted in your article, so I was really referring to its author. I must admit, however, that I assumed an agreement, on your part, with the sentiment. Am I wrong in that? If so, can you support those claims?

]]> By: Eugene Plawiuk http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-812 Eugene Plawiuk Mon, 13 Mar 2006 21:00:15 +0000 http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-812 Actually I did read your article. Which is why I linked to it. Rather than using what you call the Gramcisian Meme I thought I would show that amongst the competing ideologies in the American Libertarian community there were those who mistake corpratism, what I call state capitalism, with the free market.
Your comment; “happen to believe that government promotion of corporatism is a major problem and the anti-thesis of capitalism.” Is one of those comments that always fascinates me. Since capitalism is a historic development, this continual fantasy that there is some ideal free market somewhere is a historical, but fits well within science fiction. Which is why SEK3 and Heinlein etc. appeal to you folks. Your theory is nice, but outside of historical reality.
And check out my blog use the technocrati search and you will see I have blogged on Rothbard, Heinlein etc.
We just happen to disagree, I am after all a dialectical materialist, and no Robert I have not settled on a comfortable position unlike my friends on the right, I do look at the facts of history, which shows capitalism not to be the “unknown ideal” but a well defined historical moment.

]]> By: Robert http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-811 Robert Mon, 13 Mar 2006 19:33:49 +0000 http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/03/12/they-came-at-us-in-the-same-old-way/#comment-811 My favorite part: ”Markets and trade are never free. Someone reaps the rewards, someone pays for the rewards, and someone certainly pays for its consequences.”

There’s no need to confuse him with facts…he’s already settled on a comfortable position.

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