Comments on: July 4, 1776 http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/07/04/july-4-1776/ Life. Liberty. Property. Defending individual freedom and liberty, one post at a time. Sat, 21 Nov 2009 03:11:50 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Doug Mataconis http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/07/04/july-4-1776/#comment-1468 Doug Mataconis Wed, 05 Jul 2006 15:52:28 +0000 http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/07/04/july-4-1776/#comment-1468 VRB, When I say slavery was a contradiction, I don't mean to say that it was a nuisance. It was fundamentally at odds with the ideals that the founders were basing the country on. So was Jim Crow. Until those contradictions were dealt with, the nation really couldn't be said to be living in line with the vision the founds had established. The fact that slavery was allowed to continue after 1776 and 1787 was abhorrent. But, the people forming the nation were dealing with reality as best they could. Could they have done better, certainly. If they had failed, though, I think all of us would've been worse off. VRB,

When I say slavery was a contradiction, I don’t mean to say that it was a nuisance. It was fundamentally at odds with the ideals that the founders were basing the country on. So was Jim Crow. Until those contradictions were dealt with, the nation really couldn’t be said to be living in line with the vision the founds had established.

The fact that slavery was allowed to continue after 1776 and 1787 was abhorrent. But, the people forming the nation were dealing with reality as best they could. Could they have done better, certainly. If they had failed, though, I think all of us would’ve been worse off.

]]> By: VRB http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/07/04/july-4-1776/#comment-1466 VRB Wed, 05 Jul 2006 15:03:38 +0000 http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/07/04/july-4-1776/#comment-1466 I admire the ideas of the Declaration of Independence, I wish they would have been meant for my ancestors. Over 200 years of slavery an another 80 years of Jim Crow. I just could not stand to read slavery as a contradiction as if it was some small nusance to over come. Read some slave narratives and see how they yearned for freedom and the pain they endured. The slave paid the price for your freedom and their backs provided the economic engine to push this country toward greatness. I had read James Madison's notes on the debate regarding slavery at the Constitutional Convention. I do understand the compromise and basically if Nergroes had not been catagorize as slave making entities, they would have continued to have importation of slaves. I still think the founding fathers made a pact with the Devil. The impact of slavery is still with us. To most that impact is ignored. In ways that are not easily describable, it has impacted me and my son. I lived a part of my life under Jim Crow. What was that excuse to allow Jim Crow? I admire the ideas of the Declaration of Independence, I wish they would have been meant for my ancestors. Over 200 years of slavery an another 80 years of Jim Crow. I just could not stand to read slavery as a contradiction as if it was some small nusance to over come. Read some slave narratives and see how they yearned for freedom and the pain they endured. The slave paid the price for your freedom and their backs provided the economic engine to push this country toward greatness.
I had read James Madison’s notes on the debate regarding slavery at the Constitutional Convention. I do understand the compromise and basically if Nergroes had not been catagorize as slave making entities, they would have continued to have importation of slaves. I still think the founding fathers made a pact with the Devil. The impact of slavery is still with us. To most that impact is ignored. In ways that are not easily describable, it has impacted me and my son. I lived a part of my life under Jim Crow. What was that excuse to allow Jim Crow?

]]> By: Doug Mataconis http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/07/04/july-4-1776/#comment-1465 Doug Mataconis Wed, 05 Jul 2006 14:10:39 +0000 http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/07/04/july-4-1776/#comment-1465 I called slavery a contradiction principally because it stands in direct contradiction to the principles set forth in the Declaration of Independence. I certainly didn't mean to undermine its inherent evil. That said, Eric has an excellent point. In all likelihood, a confrontation over slavery in 1776, or 1787 when the Constitution was drafted, would have split the colonies. Instead of a united nation on the coast of the Atlantic, we would have been left with at best two or more separate weak confederations or, at worst, 13 weak independent states. Either alternative would have been ripe pickings for any number of European powers. I called slavery a contradiction principally because it stands in direct contradiction to the principles set forth in the Declaration of Independence. I certainly didn’t mean to undermine its inherent evil.

That said, Eric has an excellent point. In all likelihood, a confrontation over slavery in 1776, or 1787 when the Constitution was drafted, would have split the colonies. Instead of a united nation on the coast of the Atlantic, we would have been left with at best two or more separate weak confederations or, at worst, 13 weak independent states. Either alternative would have been ripe pickings for any number of European powers.

]]> By: Brad Warbiany http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/07/04/july-4-1776/#comment-1463 Brad Warbiany Wed, 05 Jul 2006 13:54:33 +0000 http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/07/04/july-4-1776/#comment-1463 Check out <a href="http://catallarchy.net/blog/archives/2006/07/04/the-rough-draft-of-the-declaration-of-independence/" rel="nofollow">The Rough Draft of the Declaration</a>. Jefferson (despite being a slaveowner) wanted to put in language condemning slavery. This was a major issue at the time, and they understood the contradiction of declaring every man equal with the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, all the while taking the liberty away from slaves. Was it right that they didn't take that time to end slavery? No. But as Eric points out, is it possible that we would never have succeeded otherwise? Check out The Rough Draft of the Declaration. Jefferson (despite being a slaveowner) wanted to put in language condemning slavery. This was a major issue at the time, and they understood the contradiction of declaring every man equal with the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, all the while taking the liberty away from slaves.

Was it right that they didn’t take that time to end slavery? No. But as Eric points out, is it possible that we would never have succeeded otherwise?

]]> By: Eric http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/07/04/july-4-1776/#comment-1462 Eric Wed, 05 Jul 2006 07:29:37 +0000 http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/07/04/july-4-1776/#comment-1462 Slavery was more than a contradiction, it was something that affected millions of people, black and white, and distorted American politics for all time. It could be argued that slavery, and failing to deal with it in a timely fashion, prevented the American experiment from reaching a greater potential than it did. On the other hand, it can be argued that dealing with slavery early on would have split the fragile Republic and ended the great experiment before it was truly begun. The reality is that the men dealing with creating an American Republic, a constitution and a government were treading ground never dealt with before, dealing with issues not imagined before. That they built something that stood the test of time as well as it did, enabled black slaves to eventually gain their freedom (and civil rights later), women to gain suffrage, and so on, is a testament to what those men accomplished. That it took so long for much of that to happen is a testament to the path the took, and not a good one. The point of my ramblings? That, for all the criticisms we can make from hindsight, the real question is, could we have done as well, let alone better? Slavery was more than a contradiction, it was something that affected millions of people, black and white, and distorted American politics for all time. It could be argued that slavery, and failing to deal with it in a timely fashion, prevented the American experiment from reaching a greater potential than it did. On the other hand, it can be argued that dealing with slavery early on would have split the fragile Republic and ended the great experiment before it was truly begun.

The reality is that the men dealing with creating an American Republic, a constitution and a government were treading ground never dealt with before, dealing with issues not imagined before. That they built something that stood the test of time as well as it did, enabled black slaves to eventually gain their freedom (and civil rights later), women to gain suffrage, and so on, is a testament to what those men accomplished. That it took so long for much of that to happen is a testament to the path the took, and not a good one.

The point of my ramblings? That, for all the criticisms we can make from hindsight, the real question is, could we have done as well, let alone better?

]]> By: VRB http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/07/04/july-4-1776/#comment-1460 VRB Wed, 05 Jul 2006 02:50:33 +0000 http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/07/04/july-4-1776/#comment-1460 Slavery was more than a contradiction. Slavery was more than a contradiction.

]]> By: Suitably Flip http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/07/04/july-4-1776/#comment-1452 Suitably Flip Tue, 04 Jul 2006 15:14:53 +0000 http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2006/07/04/july-4-1776/#comment-1452 <strong>Happy Independence Day!</strong> If you find yourself taking a break from being outside, roasting weenies and blowing off your thumbs, you might enjoy frittering away some indoor time via these online July 4 resources. Happy Independence Day!

If you find yourself taking a break from being outside, roasting weenies and blowing off your thumbs, you might enjoy frittering away some indoor time via these online July 4 resources.

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