“It will require many long years of self-education until the subject can turn himself into the citizen. A free man must be able to endure it when his fellow men act and live otherwise than he considers proper. He must free himself from the habit, just as soon as something does not please him, of calling for the police.” Ludwig von Mises, Liberalism
Now that the Duke Lacrosse players have been cleared of all charges, its time to pursue the real criminal: Crystal Gail Mangum. If there is any justice in this country, Mangum will be brought before a judge and jury, convicted, and frog marched to prison for the rest of her pathetic life.
Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.
RSS 2.0 Feed
You have upright motives. This is such a wrong. It would be better if you were on the right side of rape victims.
Comment by VRB — April 11, 2007 @ 5:05 pmVRB– Listen very clearly- There was no RAPE! That’s why all the charges were dropped!! Crystal Gail Mangum is a criminal and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and so should the DA. Everyone that works in the DA’s office should be investigated. END of STORY.
Comment by mel — April 11, 2007 @ 5:18 pmI am on the side of rape victims…the true rape victim which Crystal Mangum has hurt along with the young men she FALSLY accused. She should receive whatever punishment these boys would have had they been convicted. It’s my hope she endures as much shame as these boys did over the last couple of years. Imus should have reserved his comments for this despicable human being.
Comment by Stephen Littau — April 11, 2007 @ 5:37 pmI couldn’t agree more Mel.
Comment by Stephen Littau — April 11, 2007 @ 5:38 pmI think Ms. Mangum and Mr. Nifong should have some company in the “Defendants” seat.
The media and the Duke administration were just as quick to pounce on the players. I hold a special place of ire for the group of Duke professors who took out a collective ad denouncing the players and the current state of racial tension at universities.
Comment by trav.is — April 11, 2007 @ 5:57 pmI would go even further and in the interest of public health, arrest all compulsively-lying, gang-rape-fetishists who contain enough sperm to repopulate New Orleans.
Comment by Brian S. — April 11, 2007 @ 6:02 pmThe wrong is in you Stephen Littau. I was speaking on your moralism. She is not a criminal any more than some other women, some in college that accuse rape when they find themselves in a situation where they had made a bad choice. In the past, false accusations have lead to executions. All these individual have suffered is a blow to their reputations and in their case the system worked. I think this incident has hit too close to home for many males, because they know that such incidents could have lead to rape. Instead of continuing to vilify Ms. Mangum, it would have been better to have a post that informs, just what is rape and date rape. That if you are unsure what consist of “no”, err on the side of right and zip up that libido. This way you would have been in the right.
Comment by VRB — April 11, 2007 @ 7:44 pmIf there are any women reading this, do you have an opinion? Yes, I am going to ask the women if this were a white upperclass woman in that picture would you honestly agree with this post? This woman having falsely accused those boys of rape.
Comment by VRB — April 11, 2007 @ 7:51 pmVRB, Two questions,
1) Have you actually any idea what a blatant frame up job this case actually was?
2) So, where the white women who accused these boys justified in ruining their lives?
Please, Crystal Magnum falsely accused three people of committing a crime and tried to get them sent to jail. The District Attorney tried to stoke racial prejudice in order to advance his political career (actually is seems he was motivated by getting enough years in office to assure himself a decent pension).
These people played people like a violin. You are a marionette in their hands. Perhaps you should start actually looking at things with a critical eye. You’ll end up with less egg on your face.
Rape is a vile crime. However, a person who makes a false accusation of rape diminishes the credibility of all those who were raped when they cry for justice.
Comment by tarran — April 11, 2007 @ 9:28 pmCrap, Item #2 was supposed to contain a link to:
Comment by tarran — April 11, 2007 @ 9:29 pmhttp://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/FTrials/scottsboro/scottsb.htm
No one has gone to any effort to post those white womens pictures and cry for justice. There have some cases concurrent with this case, where the accuser was white. It was just not national news. How does Ms. Mangum have any power to prosecute? As far as I am concern we do not know enough about the events to know if either party was lying. I have not seen any evidence to prove innocence, just insuficient evidence to bring charges. In their states of inebriation is usually when events become fuzzy. That includes all of the parties. So I have been inclined to believe the students as much as her.
Comment by VRB — April 11, 2007 @ 10:49 pmEgg on my face, who the hell cares. I spoke because I didn’t like the intent of this post. I have made enough comments here to know what to kind of response I’ll get. I do comment, so that you all will know that you are not one with the world.
VRB,
Comment by Aimee — April 12, 2007 @ 2:15 amI am a woman and I couldn’t disagree with you more. Black or white, who cares. ANY woman that cries rape and is lying should be prosecuted. This became national news because Jackson and Sharpton are busy bodies. If it had been a white woman crying rape from a black man, you can put money on it that it would be in the news because Jackson and Sharpton would be on the the side of the black man. She had people like Jackson wanting to pay her college tuition, so don’t say she wouldn’t have any power to prosecute. And she did more put a blow to their reputations, how can you even say that? There were professors making their lives a living hell and other students carrying wanted posters with their pictures on it. They were made out to be monsters without any proof of wrong doing. Imagine what their families had to also go through, it didn’t just stop with those boys. This stupid woman brought it on herself, she saw an opportunity to get rich quick, if I remember right, this was not the first time she accused someone of rape and was LYING ABOUT IT!!!
VRB, trust me, your instincts are taking you to a place you do not want to be.
Yes, you are in the mob howling to lynch people because you know, in your bones, that they are guilty and damn the evidence.
I am one of the ones taking a critical look at the evidence and deciding that these men are innocent of any crime. Honestly, I am prejudiced against the lacrosse players – I don’t like jocks, and I have a low opinion of people who would hire strippers to go to a party. The difference is that I don’t let my prejudices blind me.
Well that means you have not been looking at the evidence at all. The physical evidence is not inconclusive. The physical evidence conclusively demonstrates that there was no crime whatsoever. To believe that a crime occurred, you must accept the idea that the crime scene and the victim were cleaned up with a “magic” towel that removed all traces of some people’s DNA while leaving other people’s DNA intact. You must be conclude that the witnesses, including disinterested cab drivers, and a neighbor who loathed the accused were lying. You must conclude that the cell phone records and ATM machines were tampered with. You must conclude that a brutal gang rape can be perpetrated without causing any bruising.
This case got national attention for the same reason that the Scottsboro case did – members of a hated ethnic group were accused of raping a member of a dominant ethnic group. It was in the interests of certain politicians and activists to make a big deal about the case. Note, the national attention was not on poor innocent white boys who were accused by an evil black woman. No the press coverage focused on out-of-control drunken athletes who took advantage of a poor defenseless black woman. The accused were pilloried in the press. They were accused of stone-walling when in fact they were cooperating with the police, threatened with lynching and other forms of mob violence.
The women who falsely accused the Scottsboro boys of rape should have been prosecuted. Filing false police reports, and obstruction of justice, are, I believe felonies in most states. The fact that the false accusers in the Scottsboro case were able to evade prosecution in an era when blacks were treated like animals by the U.S. legal system in no way lessens the seriousness of the crime.
Yes, Ms. Magnum is in many ways a small bit player. The Durham police and Nifong were far more culpable in the prosecution. Obviously Nifong did not consult with her before deciding to hide exculpatory evidence. She did not direct him to make the inflammatory statements that assured his reelection.
However, she is guilty of a very serious crime, despite her skin color and socio-economic class.
Comment by tarran — April 12, 2007 @ 8:45 amThere was a recent case in New Jersey where a white woman accused a black man of rape . Women’s groups did not want the woman’s name to be made public while NAACP insisted on it .The woman was charged with filing a false police report and arrested .Amazing double standards .
Comment by Michael — April 12, 2007 @ 9:48 amUnless you have led a sheltered life, there are more that just this incident of where it has been found the rape allegation have not been supported. Many that have involved college teams, which were mostly black.
Comment by VRB — April 12, 2007 @ 12:24 pmThere has been much venom spewed in this case, much of it before the evidence was in; this post has taken it to the next level. I did not like how she has been made the poster child as the most vicious person on earth who has ever done such a thing. All of you read too much in my comments; my experience not my instinct tells me that when alchohol(them?) and drugs(her?) are involved, sexual situations can get out of hand. You know if they didn’t dance, they should have been told to leave.
If they had sodimized her with an object would there be any DNA? See things like that are possibilities. Now because I said this, does not mean that I think this happened. I just read this somewhere.
I am not going to argue the evidence, that was not the point of my comment. I was not arguing for her innocence, but the way this post presented her as Public Enemy No 1.
You’re damn right that I want to make Crystal Mangum the villain VRB. She is the villain! These young men have had their pictures posted for the whole world to see and depicted as villains so justice demands that she is treated the same. When you have the state’s AG saying not only that the boys are not guilty but innocent, that is saying a lot. But you don’t seem to care what the facts are. Or maybe you believe its perfectly okay for a woman to make such false accusations without any consequences?
Yes, Crystal Mangum is a villain and I hope the media will do its job and do a full inquiry into her background. She needs to be exposed. Her picture and name should be posted in every media outlet; I hope that I have contributed to this effort in a small way by shedding some light on Crystal Mangum. She needs to be made an example for any other would be liars of her ilk. And trust me, if the next Crystal Mangum turns out to be white or any other race, I will post her picture too.
Comment by Stephen Littau — April 12, 2007 @ 3:39 pmI finally found the words that I have been trying to describe the response I felt when I saw the picture.
IT IS ICONOGRAPHY OF THE BLACK WOMAN!
Racist iconography is what some people will see; that is what will travel on the net. All black women will become this woman. Of course you don’t get it. Nobody gets it here, and that is more disturbing to me.
I was not trying to argue her innocence.
If you were the research the time period, during this event you would probably find a white woman that you would be able to post their picture too, but it really wouldn’t add to the discussion about rape.
Comment by VRB — April 12, 2007 @ 6:29 pmVRB,
So you are saying by posting her picture all black women are going to viewed in a negative way? By posting her picture, it sends a message to the women that are thinking of doing something as stupid and assanine as she did to maybe think twice. Since it was so public (thanks to her buddies Jackson and Sharpton), hell yeah she should be made an example of. Women should be embarrassed by people like her, no matter what color you happen to be. She gives rape victims a bad name and probably makes REAL rape victims think twice about going to the police. There was no evidence here and look how out of control it got, and how quickly.
Seriously though, do you not think she should be prosucuted for what she did?
And to your statement of being sodomized wouldn’t have left any dna, that sure as hell would have left bruising and probably bleeding from it though.
Comment by Aimee — April 12, 2007 @ 10:20 pmAimee,
Comment by VRB — April 13, 2007 @ 5:56 amIn a few days or months, no one will remember her name and but they will know what that picture represents. It looks like a mug shot, so the person must be criminal. When the details are lost it becomes all black women. To some seeing this now will look at black woman thats looks similar and think the worst. In the real world, life is not ever tidy.
The prosecution is left up to the local authorities and I really don’t know the law in North Carolina, but if they do her then I think they should prosecute all her contemporaries. I know that doesn’t happen anywhere.
Unbelievable. I find this attitude incredibly disappointing – in which the truth of the matter is buried beneath the need to conform with political expectations, and in which crimes should go unpunished because it would “make black women look bad”. Lying and accusing people of rape is not even remotely a trivial matter, and its a nasty, petty attitude to suggest it is. Anyone who does better pay the boys’ legal fees and more importantly, restore their reputations.
This woman deserves on every level to be prosecuted, paraded and brought to trial. She cannot be excused because she is a black woman. That perverts every concept of justice known to man.
Comment by FieryBalrog — April 13, 2007 @ 8:27 amSince the presumption of innocence is a cornerstone of the U.S. judicial system, why not set a good example and grant that right to Ms. Mangum? The attorney general of North Carolina, Ray Cooper, stated that Mangum contradicted herself, but decided not to prosecute her because she:
The quote is from the NYT article which is linked here.
It should be noted that there was evidence of blunt force trauma documented in a report by the sexual assault nurse who examined Mangum after the alleged attack. According to the same NYT article, that evidence was “undermined due to other accounts of her [Mangum's] activities as a stripper the weekend before the lacrosse party.”
The absence of DNA evidence was consistent with Mangum’s statement that she was bent over at the time of the attack and could not see what was used to penetrate her. If she was penetrated by an object, there would be no DNA material that would implicate any of the men attending the party.
Just as the weak circumstantial evidence was not sufficient to press charges against the three Duke University players, weak evidence should not be used to accuse Mangum of willful wrongdoing. The state’s investigation stated that Mangum was not assaulted by the three accused players, and based on the reputation of Roy Cooper, both the local NAACP and the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network have accepted the results of the state’s investigation without question.
Is it possible that, in her troubled condition on the night of March 13, 2006, Mangum recalled, as rape survivors often will, a past assault, prompted by the sights, sounds at that ill-fated party? I have no way of ascertaining whether that is what happened and, neither do you. But I do know that posting a picture of that troubled young woman in a public venue is unjustified. If Attorney General Cooper did not find her culpable, why should you be allowed to unlawfully prosecute her outside of the judicial system? The fact that the accused players were subjected to such treatment does not justify the same treatment of Crystal Mangum.
If you truly seek defend to personal freedom, then remove Ms. Mangum’s photo and consider her innocent until proven guilty.
Comment by Kochanie — April 13, 2007 @ 9:12 amClearly this issue raises great amounts of controversy and passion. I think the truth lies somewhere between all of the extreme passions displayed in this comment thread.
One comment to Kochanie. It’s not possible for a private citizen to “unlawfully prosecute” someone. It is possible to be a vigilante. None of that is happening here. Stephen is using his right to speak freely to demand that rule of law be applied all the way around. Whether you or I agree, or disagree, with him, that is most certainly his right.
One comment to VRB. I would ask that you look at your comments and consider whether or not you have made judgments about people based on their gender and skin color rather than their behavior and actions.
Comment by Adam Selene — April 13, 2007 @ 9:20 amKochima,
I would not trust the New York times on this matter: they were broadcasting a lot of propaganda for the prosecution, and have been trying to mitigate their blatant attempts to rewrite the news story. The blunt force trauma was inconsistent with forcible rape. In essence it was very minor, and absolutely inconsistent with having an object shoved into an unaroused vagina.
In fact, every version of the story that she has told contradicts some bit of physical evidence. To be blunt, and as the relative of someone who was raped, there is no excuse for her behavior. What this woman did harmed people who were truly raped. Like the Scottsboro case, she was afraid she was going to be arrested, and so she claimed rape as an excuse to evade it.
She could have put a stop to this at any time. Instead, she chose to continue down this path. In trying to get the state to jail her victims, she is guilty of being part of a conspiracy that attempted a kidnapping. Should she be jailed? I don’t think so, mainly because I view jails as worthless. I frankly feel that forced restitution is the route to go in a justice system. Should she be liable for the millions of dollars spent by her vcxtims in defending themselves? A portion of it, yes. Of course, since it was Nifong who chose to hide exculpatory evidence, and the first judge who tacitly encouraged the treats of mob violence, and that investigating officer who penned that misleading report, she shouldn’t bear the cost alone. Furthermore, since the other participants in the conspiracy did not chose to consult with her in taking these actions, one could argue that her share of restitution should be smaller than her co-conspirators. But, however small her crimes are in comparison to her fellow conspirators, she is still guilty of a very serious crime.
Comment by tarran — April 13, 2007 @ 9:35 amAdam,
Comment by VRB — April 13, 2007 @ 10:26 amI have not accused any one of anything. I could say the same and say that your prejudices have clouded your judgement.
My thoughts about that picture come from experience. I am old enough to have seen patterns of bigotry and recognize it. I know some of you live in a different world than I have. Some of you still have utopian ideals, because your faith in your ideology has never have never been tested.
VRB,
Comment by Aimee — April 13, 2007 @ 1:50 pmYou act as though that this is the only blog that has put up her picture. You act as though Stephen should have put up a more flattering picture of her in order to not make all black women be looked at like a criminal, that is crazy. O’Reilly had a nicer picture of her, does that help shine a better light on the black women out there? Give your fellow man some credit, I think people have brains and can come to their own conclusions about her and about the people they meet. No one is going to walk down the street and see a black woman and think, “Oh, she must be JUST LIKE that woman that cried rape against those Duke boys”. Are we to also assume that all white girl singers act like Brittany Spears? Because her picture is plastered all over the place too, and a lot of not so flattering ones at that.
Maybe I should better explain what should happen to Crystal Gail Mangum. I don’t really believe that she will be prosecuted. Even if she was, it would be very difficult to prove in a court of law that she intentionally lied to investigators, particularly if she played the mental health card. What I would like to see is for her to at least have to go through the process of being arrested, posting bail (or not), hiring a defense attorney, and having her live put under the microscope as her victims did. If all of that were to happen, even if the grand jury did not indict her, I think this would serve as a valuable lesson.
It’s my hope that Crystal Gail Mangum’s reputation is completely destroyed. It’s my hope that she will not have any new clients for her escort service. It’s my hope that Nifong and everyone who played a role in hiding evidence is sued for everything they have. Most of all, it’s my hope that the media and the general public will stop and consider the other side before jumping to a conclusion of guilt or innocence. (In case anyone is wondering, I did not have an opinion one way or the other until certain things came out about the evidence and contradictory statements of Mangum.)
Comment by Stephen Littau — April 13, 2007 @ 2:12 pmVRB:
Of course you haven’t. You have just made broad, sweeping generalizations that imply that people will react a certain way because of their skin color and gender and Mangum’s skin color and gender. If a white man made those exact same statements, what would your reaction be?
I don’t think you can make any comment about my “prejudice” and my “judgment” because I haven’t said a word about Mangum herself, what I think of her, what I think of the situation, etc. I don’t yet know what I think, fully. I very carefully chose the few words in my comment to avoid saying anything specific about my opinions of this event. And I’m continuing to, because I really don’t care to voice my somewhat unformed opinions at this time.
Comment by Adam Selene — April 13, 2007 @ 5:25 pmI don’t care if she’s balck, or a woman. I just care that she’s a liar, who defrauded the people, the media, and the government, and attempted to permanently destroy the lives of, and revoke the rights of these young men.
She should be in prison. Tawana Brawley should STILL be there.
She has set back every real rape victim, past, present, or future; never mind the state of race relations in this country.
And you think she shouldn’t be punished?
You’re mad.
Comment by Chris — April 13, 2007 @ 7:43 pmI said what I said, not what any of you have said I have said.
Comment by VRB — April 13, 2007 @ 8:03 pmWhat you said certainly sounds like you are saying that white men will judge black women negatively because of this picture and blog post. Every time I read the words you wrote, I can’t come up with any other meaning. I thought long and hard about your comments before I said anything. I tried very hard to just point out how it looks without making any other inferences.
What you would say if Mangum was white and a black man posted her picture on his blog and wrote that post?
Comment by Adam Selene — April 13, 2007 @ 9:01 pmMaybe I should better explain what should happen to Crystal Gail Mangum,…What I would like to see is for her to at least have to go through the process of being arrested, posting bail (or not), hiring a defense attorney, and having her live put under the microscope as her victims did. If all of that were to happen, even if the grand jury did not indict her, I think this would serve as a valuable lesson…It’s my hope that Crystal Gail Mangum’s reputation is completely destroyed. It’s my hope that she will not have any new clients for her escort service.
Your wish may very well be granted, Mr. Littau. Ms. Mangum has the dubious honor of her own page on Wikipedia. What the end result of this will be, I cannot say.
What do I wish for Crystal Gail Mangum? I hope that she can obtain counseling, that she can end her addiction to alcohol and drugs and turn her life around. That she can be a role model for her children and show them that they can change their lives. And most of all, should she succeed in turning her life around, I hope you will not scoff, but congratulate her on what will be no small achievement.
Kochanie
Comment by Kochanie — April 13, 2007 @ 11:56 pmAdam, I would not like it, but my reasons would be slightly different, I admit. The difference being that I know she would not become an iconic figure. I would see it as an unnecessary trashing of that person, I think some bloggers think they stand at the “right hand of god” and can destroy with impunity.
Comment by VRB — April 14, 2007 @ 6:51 amAs I have had said in these comments, it would serve no purpose and would not advance any dialog about rape.
Having a page on Wikipedia, that’s not iconography?
Certain images of black people have always had an impact on the perception of us. I think part of that was why this mess got started to begin with. I have often wondered why that team chose black women to perform. Some said it was because their services were cheap, but I wondered if it was the perception that they were more sexualized. I am just speculating, but as a black woman when I first heard of this or before I had heard any details that’s what came to my mind. Why? Because I know of some instances this has been the case. I know some of you will question this last statement, because you think you know black people lives better than they do.
If you don’t get it there is not any other way I can get you to understand it. None of you got indignant when an example of a white woman was brought up. If this was so important of an object lesson then why wasn’t there more research and have a white woman’s picture next to Mangum’s. What does this tell me, that this is a response to a black woman. It is saying how dare a black woman ruin these white men lives. This post is not an intellectually pure response or indignation and I am calling a “spade a spade.” You may call me racist, but I think you should check yourselves.
Growing up in Jim Crow has been more than an insult than any of you can come up with here.
VRB, I don’t understand. Here is a group of people that think the Jim Crow laws were abhorrent. A group of us who believe that everyone should be treated exactly the same, regardless of race. Give me a story that is as blatantly over the top as this one, but it involves a white woman and a group of black men and I will bet you any amount of money you care to bet that Stephen would feel the same way, say the same things.
Now, did people, including both blacks and whites, react in very poor, even racist ways? Yes, they did. But, perpetuating and playing to those behaviors by politically correct treatment of people based on race and gender is not going to fix the problem. We’ve been trying that for decades and it’s getting worse, not better.
And seriously, VRB, your statements came across as judgmental of people based on their race and gender, not their actions.
Comment by Adam Selene — April 14, 2007 @ 10:27 amI have never been so outraged in my 54 years.
Comment by Gaye McPhelan — April 14, 2007 @ 12:26 pmI have emotional problems too but I don’t make up stories that I have been raped. It is the old abuse excuse. She should be prosecuted for her lies right along with Michael Nyfong.
The double standard between the black and white races is a disgrace. It is at the point that if you are black you can say anything you like no matter how horrible it is but if you are white you cannot say anything about Blacks or Sharpton and Jackson will be right there to protest.
This case and the Imus situation has turned me in to a racist. And that is sad.
Crystal Mangum is just another oppurtunistic Carrion feeder who would jump at the chance to get a payday no matter what race or creed the men came from. Whether the men were rich Black basketball players or The Russian Dogsled team. Crystal would have gotten greedy with anybody had she the chance. The State of North Carolina is in fear of “Black Backlash” so they decided to give this black ass rat a pass. Had those White boys been wrong and they would have castrated them in the town square…Charge Crystal Mangum and stick it to her and slap a civil judgement on her so that everytime she feels like doin another batchelour party – her pay can goto those 3 boys. In an islamic society that little lie on her part would earn her a stoning. I see no reason why we shant make this animal pay.
Comment by Greg White — April 16, 2007 @ 1:24 amWell, TBIGZ, this is exactly the kind of talk that just perpetuates anti-black sentiments. You are just re-enforcing the stereotype.
Comment by John Hamilton — April 16, 2007 @ 2:35 amAdam,
Comment by VRB — April 16, 2007 @ 8:12 amThat story is not hard to find, white woman, black college team, but no one looks for that. I am not saying they should, because I don’t think its this bloggers responsibity to judge situations like these. This kind of response does nothing to advance the dialog about rape. It’s just incindary. I think decisions should be local prosecutors decisions. I say again the intent of this blog is not pure and this kind of thing will affect how black women are viewed I have been around long enough to know the utopian view you have, doesn’t exist.
TBIGZ comments have been deleted. The N-word has no place in response to any of my posts.
Comment by Stephen Littau — April 16, 2007 @ 1:25 pmShrugs, VRB, I see little point to continuing the conversation. Political Correctness has only made race relations worse, not better. I’m planning to write an entry about the new Superintendent of the Seattle School District. I have a feeling you’re not going to like it. Fair warning now. I’m sick to death of the PC approach to race that is making things far worse.
Comment by Adam Selene — April 16, 2007 @ 1:32 pm