Thoughts, essays, and writings on Liberty. Written by the heirs of Patrick Henry.

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August 14, 2007

How Ron Paul’s Supporters Aren’t Helping Him, Exhibit A

by Doug Mataconis

Over at The Crossed Pond, Rojas cites two examples of so-called supporters of Congressman Ron Paul who are doing more to sabotage his campaign than any enemy of liberty could even hope to do:

First, there’s the Alex Jones (he of the sanely titled website Prison Planet) 9/11 truth squad over at InfoWars:

A host of curious events at the Iowa Straw Poll at the weekend has raised questions as to whether there was some kind of tampering with the final vote count, with evidence to suggest Ron Paul may have been wrongly placed in fifth position behind Mitt Romney and three second tier candidates.

It was reported by local TV news stations before the event that upwards of 45,000 Republicans would arrive to meet candidates and cast their votes, however this number was dwindled down to between 30,000 and 33,000 according to the Iowa GOP’s projected figures.

The number of voters then decreased by another sizable margin to around 26,000 the next day, only for the final figure to drop EVEN FURTHER to 14,302 actual votes cast.
Even if the immediate figures of 45,000 and 33,000 were wrong and the Iowa GOP grossly overestimated the figures, with only 26,000 tickets being sold, this still does not account for the other 12, 000 tickets that suddenly disappeared. One has to ask the question why did 12,000 people buy tickets at $35 each and not vote?

Umm, dudes, maybe that’s because most of the tickets for the Ames Straw Poll are purchased not by individual voters, but by campaign organizations hoping to bring supporters to the event ? My guess is that alot of those tickets were purchased by the Romney money machine and went to waste.

And then there’s this:

The evening before the Straw Poll, a local TV news show carried a story that the expected attendance for the next day had just been increased from a maximum of 40,000 up to 45,000 – 50,000. Yet, according to the Iowa GOP, the very next day only 30,000 to 33,000 showed up.

Dudes. A few things to consider before you storm the barricades.

First of all, the Ames Straw Poll isn’t exactly a scientific sampling of the opinions of the people of Ames, the people of Iowa, or the people of the USA. It’s a Republican Party rally that, at best, measures the organizational ability of the campaigns of the people running for President. With very limited exceptions, it it has never been an accurate predictor of either the winner of the Iowa Caucuses or the winner of the Republican nomination.

Second, Congressman Paul did a heck of alot better than anyone who is only getting 3% in national polls and barely showing up in the Iowa polls would have been expected to do.

So, you know, theorizing about some vast conspiracy is both counterproductive and makes other people think you might be a little loony.

And a memo to the campaign itself. The Alex Jones’s of the world are not helping you.

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  1. Oh come on. Americans love a good conspiracy story. Really though how many people have even heard of Alex Jones?

    Comment by To Rule is to Destroy — August 14, 2007 @ 9:32 pm
  2. Really though how many people have even heard of Alex Jones?

    When they do, any hope that mainstream America would rally to Ron Paul’s side will be dead, unless the campaign distances itself from nutjobs like Jones.

    Comment by Doug Mataconis — August 14, 2007 @ 9:38 pm
  3. Doug,

    I can assure you that the vast majority of us are not 9/11 conspiracy theorists. Ron Paul is on the record as not believing in a government cover-up, though he does agree that the government should not investigate itself.

    Although there are some peculiar circumstances regarding attendance, vote counts, machine breakage, straw poll committee head (Romney staffer) and exit poll results, in the end Ron Paul supporters are excited about the coming weeks.

    I too hope the Alex Jones of keep it to themselves.

    Comment by James Aragon — August 14, 2007 @ 9:39 pm
  4. Neither are the Ron Paul “supporters” who use anti-Semitism and 9/11 “truthers” as a selling point for Paul’s campaign. Checking out the meetup groups for Paul in my area basically scared me off working for any of them. Those guys are whack-jobs and they’re really going to hurt Ron Paul once the primary season starts in earnest and Paul’s opponents start claiming that they’re the mainstream of Paul’s constituency. Paul’s campaign attracts a diverse following right now, but once the extremists become a focus it’s very tough for swing voters not to see them as the rule and not the exception. Politics may be about issues, but political campaigns usually are not.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 14, 2007 @ 9:43 pm
  5. James,

    I agree with you that not all, or even most, Paul supporters are “truthers”. But they’re the vocal ones and they’re the guys who are going to get noticed by the press if Paul’s campaign doesn’t define itself with the swing voters before Paul’s opponents and the press do it for him. Just look at what happened to Barry Goldwater’s campaign with one airing of the nuclear bomb ad…the guy was tagged as a warmongering fanatic who wanted to kill us all.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 14, 2007 @ 9:47 pm
  6. It also doesn’t help Ron Paul when he goes on Alex Jones’ show either. I’ll be surprised if that doesn’t get brought up during the primaries.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 14, 2007 @ 9:49 pm
  7. UCrawford,

    Excellent points all around.

    If the Paul campaign is going to be taken seriously, it cannot afford to be associated with nutburgers like Alex Jones.

    Comment by Doug Mataconis — August 14, 2007 @ 9:49 pm
  8. UCrawford,

    It also doesn’t help Ron Paul when he goes on Alex Jones’ show either. I’ll be surprised if that doesn’t get brought up during the primaries.

    How often has he been on that show recently ?

    I don’t know who’s running this campaign, but I would think they’d realize that, at some point, someone is going to notice that their candidate is implicitly endorsing the ideas of a man who is obviously nuts.

    Comment by Doug Mataconis — August 14, 2007 @ 9:51 pm
  9. What I’ve gathered from my Meetup group is that there’s some crazies, but not anymore than what would be expected in any political volunteer organization. It comes with the territory, and I’m sure you could find just as many crazy people rallying behind Obama or Giuliani. It’s certainly not run by any organized dogma of fanatacism, though, so I’m not that concerned about it. We’re all there because, for whatever reason, we want Ron Paul to get elected. As long as my reasoning is sound, I don’t care about their reasoning. Plus, I’m happy to report that Ron Paul groups pick up crazies from both the left and the right. He’s a uniter!

    Comment by Some Guy — August 14, 2007 @ 9:53 pm
  10. “My guess is that alot of those tickets were purchased by the Romney money machine and went to waste.”

    If you’d Google, you wouldn’t have to guess: Romney purchased 10,000 tickets and got ~4,500 votes. So that’s 5,500 of the ~12,000 purchased but unused tickets. What about the rest?

    Only nutburgers ask such questions.

    Comment by Buckwheat — August 14, 2007 @ 10:04 pm
  11. The trick for Ron Paul is to pick up “mainstream” supporters faster than the fringe picks up “mainstream media” attention.

    Ron Paul’s answer to questions about his fringe supporters can simply be freedom of association. Plus, Christ associated with the social outcasts, so it’s the Christian thing to do. ;-)

    Comment by js290 — August 14, 2007 @ 10:05 pm
  12. It is ignorant to say that just because someone appears on a show to promote ones self, especially due to a strong resistance from the MSM that they somehow have to agree with the views expressed on the show by the interviewer. Give me a break! Use your brain people. If you were a relative unknown running for President, would you turn down a free opportunity for your message and name to be heard by thousands of people? And if all interviewees endorse the views expressed on every show they appeared on, well then that would apply to about almost every damn celebrity out there! And for Ron Paul, any free publicity is good publicity right now. Soon enough, he’ll be a household name…and he didn’t have to buy it or steal it like the majority of the other candidates!

    Comment by Joe S. — August 14, 2007 @ 10:08 pm
  13. If you’d Google, you wouldn’t have to guess: Romney purchased 10,000 tickets and got ~4,500 votes. So that’s 5,500 of the ~12,000 purchased but unused tickets. What about the rest?

    Since he paid for them, don’t you think that’s really Romney’s problem? Paul paid for 800 tickets and got 1300 some odd votes. He’s not complaining. Why should anyone else?

    Only nutburgers ask such questions.

    No, the nutburgers asks such questions ad nauseam even after the man himself is satisfied with the results.

    Comment by js290 — August 14, 2007 @ 10:13 pm
  14. So is the objection to Alex Jones (plausible)
    or to the points he raises?

    So we should just ignore the facts?

    I do not advocate Jones in any way,
    but perhaps the facts can be laid out
    in an organized fashion by someone more credible.

    Disputing issues of fact based on personality is
    a tactic best left to the MSM.

    Comment by pa — August 14, 2007 @ 10:16 pm
  15. You’re right about the Alex Jones website.
    However, if I cared enough to put the energy into discrediting another candidates campaign,(as you are doing here) I have no doubt whatsoever I would find similar examples of political extremist support for every single candidate. We know the loon’s aren’t helping…any more than you – by constantly scaring away potential voters by making all Paul supporters seem like fanatics, instead of suggesting voters do their own research.

    Comment by jeremy — August 14, 2007 @ 10:17 pm
  16. Joe,

    Politics is always about compromise. If you don’t have a lot of exposure, it’s understandable that you’d appear on shows like Bill Maher, or channels like Comedy Central, or venues like YouTube and MySpace. You don’t, however, throw all standards out the window and start appearing on the shows of guys like Alex Jones whose opinions are beyond extreme, moving into the realm of insane. If you’re trying to attract a bigger following you don’t tie yourself to anti-Semites, or racists, or anti-capitalists, because when you do that you tie yourself to positions that a great number of Americans, especially Republican Americans (whose votes Paul needs) oppose and despise. Paul’s opponents in the primary will take great pride in pointing this out as well. That’s called letting your opponents define you with the voters before you define yourself. And it is invariably a bad thing for political campaigns.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 14, 2007 @ 10:22 pm
  17. js290 –

    Follow me closely:

    1) Alex Jones claimed possible vote fraud at Ames due to, among other factors, there were 12,000 more $35 tickets purchased than used.

    2) Mataconis pointed out that his “guess” was that Romney had purchased a bunch of tickets and been unable to give them away, and called Jones a “nutburger” for asking such questions.

    3) I say that Jones should have mentioned the unused Romney 5,500, but that still leaves Mataconis with 6,500 purchased but unused tickets. I think that sounds weird and, in conjunction with the delay in results and other anomalies, I’m suspicious.

    Real suspicious, in fact.

    Re “nutburgers”: I learned years ago in forensics that ad hominem attacks are a sign of inherent weakness in the argument.

    Comment by Buckwheat — August 14, 2007 @ 10:22 pm
  18. Why are we even talking about supporters instead of the the candidates? I don’t see people talking about supporters of other candidates and what they do. And it’s not like they don’t have some out there stuff.

    Seems a rather silly topic overall to me. Why even justify the stupidity of holding candidates responsible for their supporters?

    Comment by badmedia — August 14, 2007 @ 10:25 pm
  19. Also, don’t forget divide and conquer. Not reason for supporters to fight with each other, remember the things we have in common, freedom and liberty.

    Comment by badmedia — August 14, 2007 @ 10:26 pm
  20. Jeremy,

    Every question brought up about Ron Paul on this site will likely come up in the election. If his supporters aren’t willing to or capable of answering them objectively (and without slogans or exaggeration), I think that’s more a reflection on the supporters than the questioners. And when the supporters treat every question like a personal attack (which many have done here) frankly that does a lot more to discredit Paul’s campaign than the questions do.

    As Jack Valenti, one of the ultimate campaign gurus, pointed out politics is a rough game. It’s not meant to be a walk in the park.

    And for the record, most voters don’t have the time or inclination to do research. That’s why campaigns aren’t about educating, they’re about selling. And most of the supporters I take issue with are piss-poor salesmen for Ron Paul.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 14, 2007 @ 10:32 pm
  21. js290,

    I think you’re right.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 14, 2007 @ 10:34 pm
  22. “… unless the campaign distances itself from nutjobs like Jones.”

    Ron has already said that he does NOT believe the Jones fables (ie: the government planned 9/11).
    He is happy to take any platform that is offered him to express HIS ideas. He is not responsible for the silly views of any of his hosts.

    There was no vote “discrepancy” at Ames. The GOP hyped the turnout and $400k was spent by candidates on tickets that were never used. There were ZERO errors on the Diebold machines … even though three voters failed to follow the simple instructions.

    Comment by Bill Westmiller — August 14, 2007 @ 10:36 pm
  23. Bill,

    Really? Then why not just do interviews for Stormfront, or NAMBLA, or random alien conspiracy sites too? After all, racists and pedophiles and people who believe in Area 51 vote too.

    You’d be completely correct if Paul wasn’t running for the Republican nomination for President. But he is, so unfortunately venue matters. Again, winning campaigns are about selling, not educating. And picking the wrong venue to air your beliefs works against that.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 14, 2007 @ 10:44 pm
  24. Well, Ron Paul isn’t helping his supporters either, so it goes both ways. No one returns phone calls, tons of work goes to waste, people are ignored with time sensitive materials, and then they whine when the supporters don’t behave properly.

    I was told two opposite positions today from the campaign. The both can’t be true. Where is there training? I was told to get out of the campaign if I was not pro-life and go support Hillary.

    So, don’t lay this all on the supporters. They are doing everything on their own with no help, no guidance, and total rudeness from the campaign itself.

    Go yell at them.

    Without the supporters, they wouldn’t have even had paper ballots to count when the machine did fail.

    You work your tail off for someone you don’t expect a medal, but to be completely ignored and then yelled at because you didn’t do things they way they wanted them done?

    His supporters are working day and night for this man and can’t even get an email returned. So lay off!

    Comment by George — August 14, 2007 @ 10:46 pm
  25. Just because somebody goes onto a talk show doesn’t mean they share the same worldview as the host.

    People go on the Alex Jones show because Alex is one of the few people who will actually let them talk about what’s going on. Ron Paul’s viewpoint and platform is not one that has tended to be accepted by the mainstream media.

    Ron Paul has also demonstrated a great amount of humility and has appeared as a guest on numerous talk shows, public access programs, internet videos, the man will talk to anybody. Ron Paul is for the people and has demonstrated that he will make himself available in almost every venue he’s been offered.

    The 9/11 Truth movement has endorsed his candidacy largely due to the fact that he is the only candidate to promise to re-open the government investigation into that day.

    What I can’t seem to understand is why are people so offended by Paul’s willingness to take up this postion?? If the people don’t feel that we have a clear understanding or have gotten the full truth, what is the harm in seeking it out? What’s the big deal??

    Everyone knows that there were scandalous things going on that day whether it was the stock-put options, the insurance deals, the text messages being sent to forewarn workers at the WTC, the military simulations, the NORAD stand down, Operation Abledanger, the list goes on.. Are we getting the whole truth? Do we really trust our government to tell it to us?

    Maybe I would trust Ron Paul’s vision of government accountability to tell me the truth. But as the 911 commissioners say, their commission was not very large and scope and set up to fail:

    Commissioners believe the Commission was set up to fail
    In their book “Without Precedent: The Inside Story of the 9/11 Commission” on their experience serving as co-chairs of the Commission, Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton devoted the first chapter on how they believed the Commission was set up for failure. Hamilton listed a number of reasons why they thought this, including the late start of the Commission and the very short deadline imposed; the insufficient funds, 3 million dollars, initially allocated for conducting such an extensive investigation (later the Commission requested and received additional funds, but the chairs still felt hamstrung); the many politicians who did not want the Commission formed; the continuing resistance and opposition to the work of the Commission by many politicians, particularly those who did not wish to be blamed for any of what happened; and the denial of access by various agencies to documents and witnesses. “So there were all kinds of reasons we thought we were set up to fail.”

    Comment by mike — August 14, 2007 @ 10:49 pm
  26. You are all wrong. This early in the game, ANY PUBLICITY is good publicity. No one even knows who he is. Ron Paul would GLADLY have the truthers yell his name from the roof tops, just so people will say “Who is Ron Paul, anyway?” and start to learn about him.

    Any publicity is good publicity. If mainstream news ran features about Ron Paul and his “crazy” supporters, Paul would love it….

    Ron Paul doesn’t necessarily support them, they support him. It’s a big difference.

    If the KKK supported the Republican party, does that mean Republicans are doomed? No….

    Comment by Jeff — August 14, 2007 @ 10:50 pm
  27. The 9/11 Truth movement has endorsed his candidacy largely due to the fact that he is the only candidate to promise to re-open the government investigation into that day.

    Should this be the primary focus of Ron Paul’s campaign?

    Comment by js290 — August 14, 2007 @ 10:58 pm
  28. I must be poor at Googling. I find only guesses that Romney would purchase 10,000 tickets. I didn’t see online what he actually gave away, or actually bought. I got the impression that some Romney ticket holders enjoyed the festivities, but had to get back on a bus before they voted.

    Huckabee bought 1,850 tickets and got half as many more votes.

    Ron Paul bought 800 tickets (some not handed out) and got over half as many more votes.

    Tancredo bought a lot of tickets, but could only give away 2,400 and then got less votes.

    Brownback seems to have purchased a lot of tickets.

    I know the Fair Tax folks ran busses, but I don’t know if they bought tickets or were allowed to.

    So, after some Googling, it is still up in the air for me.

    Comment by Thomas — August 14, 2007 @ 11:00 pm
  29. 9-11, like pearl harbor, was in the least allowed to happen. Anyone who denies that is ignoring too much history. And I wouldn’t be so fast to discredit anything Jones says. I know he goes off on the deep in some areas, but his point that the government is overstepping its bounds holds plenty of water.

    Paul has already dealt with the 9/11 truth question when he was on Fox news. I don’t think we need to worry about it. He is in no way responsible for what his supporters do. If any news agencies try to hold him accountable for such actions, they will be covered with a wave of dissent.

    People’s speech should not be regulated in any area. If an argument is valid, it will be recognized as the campaign picks up speed. If not, it will be ignored, but it cannot be used against Paul. Everyone knows he brings in a diverse crowd.

    Paul’s campaign is ‘no holds barred’ – All or Nothing. There is no need for in-fighting.

    Comment by Jim — August 14, 2007 @ 11:11 pm
  30. We have people in our group, that listen to Alex Jones. But we also have a policy, that forbids anyone to discuss “conspiracies” I tell my people, yes there maybe reasons for this and reasons for that. But we are here to stress the positive. The end of filing for the small businessman. The end of the war. The no draft policy, etc.
    Meeting as many people through my life as I have though. I would say most are inclined to believe that the Rich and the Powerful run the country for their own interests. Luckily for those in Power, most people just put their nose to grindstone, and get on with it. The media is going to try, and make a big deal out of this. Hopefully most Americans will sense there is something different here, and the connection will take hold. And nothing the talking heads say will matter. I can dream, can’t I?

    Comment by To Rule is to Destroy — August 14, 2007 @ 11:13 pm
  31. George,

    You’re not really the kind of supporter I’ve got a problem with. My problem’s more with the fringe. Frankly, it sounds like you’re doing a lot of the grunt work and putting in effort and every campaign needs people like that…it’s actually remarkably tough to find from libertarians and I think it’s a strength of Ron Paul’s campaign. Don’t get too discouraged, it sounds like you’re doing your part.


    The Republican party, however, doesn’t appear on KKK radio shows. Alex Jones can support Ron Paul all he wants, and that’s good…that adds votes without tying Paul to an unpopular policy position. When Ron Paul looks like he may be supporting Alex Jones, however, that’s bad because that ties Paul to a losing campaign issue for swing voters.

    Swing votes, people, successful campaigns are all about the swing votes.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 14, 2007 @ 11:15 pm
  32. Swing votes, people, successful campaigns are all about the swing votes.

    Hammer, meet nail, hit head.

    UCrawford, you nailed it.

    Comment by Doug Mataconis — August 14, 2007 @ 11:19 pm
  33. Jim,

    As a former member of the United States military who worked in the intel community, I’ve just got to say that you, Alex Jones and and all your loser “truther” buddies can blow me. You know jack shit, you have no evidence to back up your position (because you’re wrong) and frankly I’m sick of hearing you guys whine about how the government must be lying because they didn’t give you the answer you want (again, because you’re wrong). Bush may be the worst commander-in-chief in U.S. history, but he did not order or allow 9/11 to happen, nor did anyone else in the military or intel community. Frankly, those intel operatives you seem to despise have likely done more to help and protect this country than the whole lot of you crackpot “truthers” combined. So go take a long walk off a short pier, jackass.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 14, 2007 @ 11:26 pm
  34. UCrawford,

    Best. Comment. Ever.

    Comment by Doug Mataconis — August 14, 2007 @ 11:27 pm
  35. As far as Meetups go, as someone who runs a group, I can tell you that the key is that everyone, regardless of political differences or differences in belief, have to find a common message, and that is what Ron Paul talks about. From Truther to Libertarian and Republican to Democrat, we talk about liberty, the Constitution, and respect and our group does very well for that.

    People can have different beliefs without it being a hindrance. So long as we keep a common goal.

    Comment by Tom K — August 14, 2007 @ 11:33 pm
  36. UCrawford:
    You are right, there are a lot of Ron Paul supporters (myself included) who could work on *selling* Dr. Paul’s credentials. My relatives at the Iowa Straw poll commented that some of the Ron Paul supporters seemed to be taking the *forcing* method–which, obviously, doesn’t work.

    As Ron Paul supporters we need to take the results of the Straw Poll for what they are: a step in the right direction, but a sign that there is still much to be done.

    Comment by Brian — August 14, 2007 @ 11:35 pm
  37. Brian,

    I think you’re right, I think that the straw poll was promising. Paul’s not buying a lot of advertising yet, he’s not spending big, but he seems to be gaining some momentum…real momentum too. He doesn’t come off as the kind of candidate who’s going to lose voters once he’s won them over, mainly because he’s not a flip-flopper on the issues. So getting 9% at this point while spending little can only be seen as a plus. And once he starts spending money on the ads, the media will pick up more on him (they always pay attention to ad money). Like someone once said, this race could get very interesting if Ron Paul ever breaks 10% in the polls. And I think it works in Paul’s favor as the field thins. The frontrunners aren’t making anyone go “Wow” and Paul’s got the best issues.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 14, 2007 @ 11:40 pm
  38. Tom,

    Your point is taken.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 14, 2007 @ 11:41 pm
  39. How about you re-title this to “How Doug Mataconis is not helping Ron Paul”?

    I mean seriously, every time a do a Google News search for Ron Paul, another one of your piss pieces about Ron Paul is the first thing that pops up.

    Seriously, think about it.

    Your constantly creating/airing dirty laundry that pops up so readily when searching about Ron Paul is certainly doing much more harm than Alex Jones or anyone else. And it’s certainly doing more harm than good.

    If you’re trying to help, then stop. If you’re trying to hurt, then you are hitting your mark.

    Comment by Paul — August 14, 2007 @ 11:55 pm
  40. Or you can look at it from the perspective that a Google search for Ron Paul will turn up as its number one listing a spirited debate between people of various ideological backgrounds who all still agree that Ron Paul is the best candidate in the race.

    Get real…if Ron Paul’s campaign is going to do well, people who support his cause debating the issues are not going to turn off potential voters. Frankly, the issues are one of Paul’s strength and you should be glad that people are paying attention. And if you think his opponents don’t already know where the weak spots are, you obviously know little about political campaigns.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 12:13 am
  41. Although an occasional Ron Paul fluff piece on The Liberty Papers wouldn’t be bad. It’s probably a bit overdue considering the heated tone of the last few posts :)

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 12:14 am
  42. Right, Ron Paul supporters have been the most knowledgeable in general. There is real debate instead of empty rhetoric or demagoguery. Let’s keep the conversation smart and civil and then you can actually convince people to vote for Ron Paul through logic and reason.

    The best characteristic of the Republican party when it wasn’t in power a decade and a half ago was its intellectual vigor. But once the Republican party came to power, its intellectual vigor was discarded and replaced by blind party loyalty and presidential command and control. The Republican Party has to show an united front – so to speak – but the party ended up committing mistake after mistake because all the bad ideas were not screened out. Damn Karl Rove.

    Comment by TanGeng — August 15, 2007 @ 12:38 am
  43. Yeah i wish the lefties that support Ron Paul would just shut the hell up and move on to focusing their energy on promoting Ron Pauls message NOT their own!

    You see Ron Pauls Base has moderates, conservatives and Liberals. Which is good hes uniting us and bringing us all together but these truthies are really starting to piss me off.

    We dont all agree on everything but next time you see someone trying to promote their own crap with Dr pauls message tell them to STFU please!

    Comment by RonPaul4president — August 15, 2007 @ 1:20 am
  44. It is true that we are salesmen, or should be. I participated in an event that we had an opportunity to approach a lot of people from a booth situation. It wasn’t a political venue, and so I took my knowledge of “carnies” minus the rudeness and applied it very well to get initial contact, then followed through with the base lines of “winning friends/influencing people” and got a tremendous response from this combination. Spoke to a lot of people that would have otherwise just passed by.

    We all need to work on our sales. And it is also a numbers game, there is no point in debating someone for an hour that probably won’t agree in the end anyway. Give your pitch, reel ‘em in to the next level of support (i.e. like him to donate, donate to meetup member, clueless to knowledge of) or not and move on to the next.

    Comment by kmc — August 15, 2007 @ 1:28 am
  45. I totally agree with you KMC, we are salesmen.

    Just these morons who keep promoting inside job and diebold voting fraud are getting on my nerves. I keep my cool but damn it.

    Comment by RonPaul4president — August 15, 2007 @ 1:33 am
  46. To Quote Saturday Night Live….

    Doug, you ignorant slut.

    Give me a break, every few days you poke your head out from under whatever toadstool the MSM has assigned you, and take a shot at Dr. Paul.

    Now it’s character assination by association. Ok so be it.

    Alex Jones ….. Nutjob, sure. Wacko, you bet. Loud, uncouth… yup. Conspiracy Theorist. Definately.

    You and I both know the best way to shut up a conspiracy. Prove it wrong.

    So if you really want to lay the issue to rest. Then count the damn ballots, and be done with it.

    So lapdog … yes Doug I am talking to you … Put up or shut up.

    You worse than Alex Jones. At least he is sincere in what he preaches. You…. your just a paid for shill.







    Comment by Lost_in_Samoa — August 15, 2007 @ 1:40 am
  47. So tell me oh wise ones, how did building #7 at the world trade center fall? And how many of YOU nutjobs knew that income taxes were illegal before nutjob Aaron Russo made America Freedom to Fascism? Oh please do tell wise ones! While your at it, please tell us how you voted for BUSH and Co. in the first place…….please I am waiting to hear how the building fell when it didn’t get hit by a jet and was barely on fire…….please do tell us “truthers” the truth oh wise ones!!!

    Comment by ron paul supporter — August 15, 2007 @ 1:52 am
  48. Ron Paul won’t be elected anyway, because most of his supporters besides the “truthers” are too gutless to use the 2nd Amendment for the purpose it was designed for! Right oh great Ron Paul supporters who are NOT for truth.

    Comment by ron paul supporter — August 15, 2007 @ 1:54 am
  49. UCrawford, would that be blow you like the women and children you blew…………up?

    Comment by ron paul supporter — August 15, 2007 @ 1:58 am
  50. Exhibit A for the Defense.

    Comment by ron paul supporter — August 15, 2007 @ 2:20 am
  51. Exhibit B for the Defense

    Comment by ron paul supporter — August 15, 2007 @ 2:22 am
  52. It’s one thing for Doug to be slinging his feces out from some random blog, but using a site called “libertypapers”? It just confuses people when a known anti-Paul, neocon hides behind a site that’s supposedly for liberty.

    Comment by brody — August 15, 2007 @ 2:25 am
  53. So tell me oh wise ones, how did building #7 at the world trade center fall?… please I am waiting to hear how the building fell when it didn’t get hit by a jet and was barely on fire…….please do tell us “truthers” the truth oh wise ones!!!

    So are you suggesting that Ron Paul’s campaign should be completely about uncovering 9/11? Even if it’s definitively proven that 9/11 is an inside job, then what?

    And how many of YOU nutjobs knew that income taxes were illegal before nutjob Aaron Russo made America Freedom to Fascism? Oh please do tell wise ones!

    If that’s all you got out of Russo’s film, then you weren’t paying a whole lot of attention. The history of the Federal Reserve system is by far more interesting. And, this point, it’s policies, the inflation tax, etc. should be made more relevant to more people. If you listen to Ron Paul carefully, that’s precisely what he talks about. He doesn’t encourage people to avoid paying income taxes because it may be illegal. Ron Paul knows how the game is played. Do you?

    Comment by js290 — August 15, 2007 @ 2:26 am
  54. Exhibit C for the Defense.

    Comment by ron paul supporter — August 15, 2007 @ 2:28 am
  55. I am sick and tired of stupid people putting me down because I support Dr. Paul and know for a FACT that 911 was not anything like the official story, when you tell me I can’t support Dr. Paul because I want the truth about what really happened, we have a problem and I WON’T back down!

    People who still believe it was good ole Osama that did this, scare the hell out of me, these are the people who allowed America to become what it has become, they are gutless coward to face truth!

    What about Jessica Lynch, what about Pat Tillman…….haven’t you people learned anything from these people…….wow, you scare me and piss me off at the same time!

    Comment by ron paul supporter — August 15, 2007 @ 2:32 am
  56. Exhibit D for the Defense

    Comment by ron paul supporter — August 15, 2007 @ 2:34 am
  57. Exhibit E for the Defense

    Comment by ron paul supporter — August 15, 2007 @ 2:38 am
  58. Just a “wee” comment to distract from the conflict over divisive issues that need to take a back seat to issues that unite, such as “Freedom” and “Peace,” if we want to succeed in electing Ron Paul.

    Here is my “wee” comment that applies not only to the writer of the article but, I suspect, to a number of readers as well.

    The correct term to communicate “many” is “a lot” not “alot.”

    Ron Paul 2008 for “WEE” the People!

    Comment by Likkerish — August 15, 2007 @ 2:50 am
  59. Final Exhibit to educate my fellow Americans.
    If you can’t get this and don’t believe a well repected Physics Profession, then you are hopeless and it will be YOU that causes America to fall.

    Comment by ron paul supporter — August 15, 2007 @ 2:51 am
  60. quote:
    Exhibit A for the Defense.

    Umm, after watching this I thought you were saying that is wasn’t a conspiracy. At the beginning the guys being filmed are saying “keep your eye on that building” and “it’s about to blow up.” This indicates the building was damaged enough to alert people long BEFORE it went down that it was going to go down. It it had been a demolition there wouldn’t have been such a warning.

    I love Ron Paul, but if he never gets any real support I am going to blame all of you 911 conspiracy theorists who won’t keep your mouths shut for his failure.

    Comment by John M — August 15, 2007 @ 2:55 am
  61. I am sick and tired of stupid people putting me down because I support Dr. Paul…

    Nobody is putting you down because you’re supporting Ron Paul. If you’re being put down, it’s because you’re fixated on one issue that could prevent him from getting the support he needs to get elected. You have to decide if it’s more important to get Ron Paul elected, or if it’s more important for you to throw a tantrum over 9/11.

    You know, I thought it’d be the Fed mob that would take Ron Paul out before he gets a chance to get elected, but now I’m thinking a truther may get to him first…

    Comment by js290 — August 15, 2007 @ 3:04 am
  62. I doubt that the supporters are sabotaging Ron Paul’s message nearly as badly as the main stream media is doing with their editting hack jobs, slanted questions, and snarls!
    I feel that the majority of Ron Paul supporters KNOW A LOT about how the country is run, or atleast thirsty for honest views. Ron Paul is the only hope for those people searching for a candidate with a clear, consistant, and sincere opinion.
    The meetup groups have been a terrific experience and I think of the members who are active in the grassroots campaign as family.

    Comment by jfree — August 15, 2007 @ 5:24 am
  63. Every family has a crazy uncle but this campaign seems to have more than its share.
    Here’s a nightmare: Ron Paul does well enough that the MSM starts to take him seriously. Then a couple of days before a big primary an interview is aired of one of the kooks, he says: “I can prove that George Bush paid the Jews to blow up the World Trade Center and now the government is trying to kill me so I can’t spread the word. Also, the government is trying to sabotage the Paul campaign because they know if Paul is elected he’ll tell everyone that I’m right.”
    PLEASE if you’re an anti-Semite, a 9/11 truther, a tin hatter or some other type of kook don’t allow anyone to tie it together that you’re a kook and a Ron Paul supporter.

    Comment by Bob — August 15, 2007 @ 7:39 am
  64. Who cares if someone listens to Alex Jones. Why is this site so bitter about

    Comment by Formica — August 15, 2007 @ 7:39 am
  65. Oh, and most of the sabotage against Ron Paul comes from this site as well. Look at the doug’s RP article history, Exhibit A…….

    Comment by Formica — August 15, 2007 @ 7:40 am
  66. Liberty you say:
    “So, you know, theorizing about some vast conspiracy is both counter-productive and makes other people think you might be a little loony.”

    Well call me looney then (do it, it feels SO good!) because I believe in a vast conspiracy theory. It goes like this:

    ‘A tall guy with a long beard in a cave in a faraway land conspired with 19 midgets with tiny knives brought the greatest empire the world has ever know to it’s knees one September day.’

    Wow, crazy conspiracy theory huh? Call me crazy. I sure must be a wacko. You are so right. I call on eveyone with eyes to see to call this conspiracy wacko too. There’s already one guy who does. His name is Alex Jones.

    Comment by Joey — August 15, 2007 @ 7:49 am
  67. Pick a group in society that you think is crazy. Everything else being equal are you more or less likely to support a candidate that you believe to be associated with that crazy group?

    Doug is simply telling the truth. Better we hear it now from him than later from our opponents and the MSM.

    Comment by Bob — August 15, 2007 @ 7:50 am
  68. So, if folks like Alex Jones don’t ‘shut up’, will you claim they’re intentionally hurting the campaign? This is a terrible idea, asking the ‘fringe’ groups that support candidates to not make any noise. In the first place, sometimes this is how candidates have support in the first place, if they don’t have millions of dollars to start off a campaign with. Secondly, although the groups may sometimes go overboard, that doesn’t mean everything they say is bad. I am sure there a lots of Paul supporters that do not agree with everything he says, but like his overall message. Likewise, these groups may get noticed for ‘crazy’ things they say and do, but overall they may mean well, but you only hear about the crazy stuff. I mean, who wants to do in depth research anyway when you can read a quick paragraph about how they’re crazy because of some weird idea they have (that is just a small segment of their overall platform)?
    I have a better idea, why don’t you just write an article about how anyone who isn’t normal should totally clam up during election times because whatever candidate they support might be tarnished because of their support?

    Comment by Ben — August 15, 2007 @ 7:53 am
  69. Doug,

    This is my last post. I did remove links from my other sites which were inpointing links to the liberty papers… No one at libertypapers took action with my simple request.

    About this article:

    1) Most people who are members of the GOP have no clue who Alex Jones is… No, most are to busy watching Fox News, Hannity and Rush. If you look at Alex Jones web numbers isn’t a top tiered website. But Alexs Jones is correct about Ring Worm raditiaon and many other issues which I confirmed before I cast a stone. Also, Most gop members visit the as a primary online source.. So your point about Alex Jones is useless.

    2) We need to take action and see to it that only paper is counted at any poll. Diebold has hired people who desire to steal votes and support the Neocon agenda which I will never support. Hillary is a version of the Neocon.

    I must admit Doug, this post is by far the most neutral of any post you didn’t really attack Ron Paul.

    Paul’s results I think were good I was in Iowa and by Far Ron Paul supporters were our in force… I did see a lot of Iowa cars with Ron Paul bumper stickers…. I’m from Va and I also saw people from other states as Paul supporters. I would say it was about a 75/25 ratio…. 75% from Iowa.

    I just purchased a Range Rover and I was most proud of my huge tire cover which I had made stating: Ron Paul 2008. I will have it in the market place and the profits will be donated to Paul in care of the person who purchases the Tire Cover I have also had the same thing done for about 10 other Tire covers i.e. Jeeps, Range Roover, etc. I hope it will help raise at least $200,000 for Paul.

    Anyway Doug I wish you well… Maybe in your own tristed way you appeal to a group of Paul supporters and reach a niche I would never attempt to reach. In the end we just need Paul in office.

    If I see that you post issues with border line truth isses then I will have to post an article on one of my sites which is in Alexa’s top 5,000. To correct your points.

    All in all I don’t see Alex Jones is an issue. But if you want to get right down to it perhaps some of the Log Cabin supports hurt Mitt but do most of the GOP members who know what a GOP log cabin member is? I doubt it. Likewise, Alex helps reach a niche of supporters that would not be reached by other means.

    When I was in Iowa I must confirm the view of young supports isn’t 100% correct. I meet several business owners from Iowa who did over a 1.5 in sales last year. I also meet older members. So, it does appear Paul is supported by every party member, race, etc.

    In closing I wish you and liberty well… I just don’t like the way you report the news of Ron Paul at all and I think many people feel the same way.

    But it also appears you have a few fans. Maybe you have a purpose to appeal to those who only learn about ron paul from a negative point of view… I suppose that remains to be seen.

    At the moment I can tell you I’m working on 10 state websites which deal with state, city, county news for each state and we hope it will help us reach members from each state to help Ron Paul in the early key states.

    In my view if people only took a moment to read Ron Paul’s straight talk articles then it would interject common since and help support Ron Paul even more. I think this is a key element.

    Now before Ucrawford or others want to bitch about my grammer/spelling issues let me confirm I still have my left eye covered so it’s the message that is important.

    Comment by Darel99 — August 15, 2007 @ 8:07 am
  70. I agree that Alex Jones goes overboard with the conspiracies. I think he sees them in everything because he’s conditioned himself to look for them everywhere. But I don’t think he is a nutjob, and I certainly don’t presume to know more than him about the things he talks about (unlike the blogger here).

    Anyone who spends 8+ hours every day studying for years (like Jones does–it’s his job) will know more about that subject than someone who doesn’t study it at all. To deny that fact is downright laughable. But each person that says he’s crazy is saying that they know more about his area of expertise, they know he’s wrong, and they are superior to him as a researcher and as a human being. So, you know more and you know he’s wrong about everything he says, huh?

    Anyone who doesn’t question the official story of 9/11 has never done any studying of the subject.

    Whether or not you believe it was an inside job, if you have any intelligence at all (and some guts to dare to think about something scary) you will know that the official story is very wrong.

    To repeat, disagreeing with the official story DOES NOT mean you are a nutjob/wacko/insane. It means you are not satisfied with what the government asks you to believe. It means you have some intuition and enough guts to stand up when you disagree. It also DOES NOT mean you agree with every other opinion out there.

    People like the ones at this blog have an either/or mentality, just like the propaganda taught you (what good students you must have been in government “public” schools). It’s all black and white. The world is a simple place, and you have all the answers (as far as you know). Don’t bother to think or read, just trust the government to take care of it all and go back to watching your TV show.

    Hitler got into power in a similar way and from votes of many sheeple just like you. They loved him. And everything he did was legal because they changed the laws to make it that way. Just like America’s laws have been changed to make all the same stuff legal here and now.

    If you don’t think that our government would lie and kill innocent people for power and money, they already have: we were lied to about Iraq and because of that willful and premeditated deceit, 3000 soldiers are dead! Troops are fighting a war and dying because of lies.

    Why do you still support a government that lies to you and sends other citizens to be killed for those lies? It’s either stupidity or fear.

    Unlike you, I don’t pretend to know all the answers and shout-down anyone who disagrees. I’ll listen to points of view that differ from mine, if only to make sure I’ve heard them all so I can come to my own INFORMED conclusions.

    I hope Ron Paul wins. But there’s a lot more to do than just get a decent man into the President’s office. There’s a whole corrupt system trying to destroy everything in sight, and people like you with such closed minds are part of that shameful machine that will one day be known in history for what it really is.

    Comment by Jason — August 15, 2007 @ 8:29 am
  71. “Ron Paul Supporter”,

    You’re not “the defense”. The role you’re choosing to act in is that of “the prosecution”. The defense’s job is to refute evidence presented by the prosecution, and it is the prosecution’s role is to provide evidence that can establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt (since real justice systems operate under a presumption of innocence for the accused). That boatload of non-sequiturs, newsclippings, and personal opinions you shoveled out do not rise to that level…it doesn’t even rise to the level of circumstantial, and none of it actually ties Bush to 9/11 as an instigator in any kind of operational capacity (again, because you’re wrong). Ergo, you have no case and everyone with half a brain knows it. Your complete inability to grasp that basic nuance of justice (and debate) is at the heart of why the rational world doesn’t want anything to do with you. So go shit in your hat.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 8:39 am
  72. Darrel,

    The problem for the Paul campaign is that even though most people might not know who Alex Jones is now, when they find out (and, if Ron Paul becomes an even halfway serious contender for the nomination, they will find out), it’s going to turn off most mainstream voters.

    Comment by Doug Mataconis — August 15, 2007 @ 8:40 am
  73. Who needs Fox Newscorp when Doug Mataconis is doing all their work for them? Wtg Doug! Don’t forget to pick up your paycheck on the way out.

    Comment by Golgari — August 15, 2007 @ 8:52 am
  74. It makes me sick to observe people calling others ‘crazies’, ‘loons’ and ‘nuts’.

    Who are you to judge somebody else’s view of the world?

    Yes, there will be conflicting views in this world, but surely this is a good thing. A monotone world with no variety would certainly not be enjoyable, no matter how many of you think every other person in the world should share your views.

    Will you go to a tribal community in the rainforest and start calling them loons and nut jobs if they believe that trees have spirits?

    People have different ways of seeing the world, get used to it, and stop this senseless witch hunt. Work together and understand each other so that we can move together as one.

    Comment by Dave — August 15, 2007 @ 8:53 am
  75. Ok, who cares what outlet Dr. Paul wants to speak on. As long as people hear that man talk, it is always a good thing. As for Alex Jones, he is a little extreme but I believe that he really believes in his causes, and economically he and Dr. Paul share the same theory, on the way this country is headed, and this is America so freedom of speech and press rule(most of the time). Anyway, i’m sure every campaign has it’s share of people who would be called eccentric, so to Paul supporters defense, why wouldn’t they think votes were tampered with? Since 2000 every American should question voting machines and their abilities. The elite are looking for any reason to smear Dr. Paul because they are frightened by his message of freedom for the people. Who cares what kind of people? We are all Americans and we need to stand together for a common cause to reinstate the constitution, and bring freedom and liberty back into American lives. All supporters need to concentrate on spreading the word, and raising funds, leave everything else to the wayside. RON PAUL 2008!!!!

    Comment by Christina — August 15, 2007 @ 9:16 am
  76. “If the 9/11 families aren’t satisfied with the findings (of the 9/11 Commission Report), then neither am I.” – Ron Paul

    Hmmm…sounds like crazy truther wacko stuff to me.

    I’m not a truther. I don’t think there was government complicity in 9/11. But I do believe that the 9/11 Commission was hamstrung by a long list of people who failed to do their jobs, and who are now covering up their own incompetence.

    Yeah, I wish that some of these people would shut up, at least while we are working to elect Ron Paul, but I don’t think they should EVER stop questioning the government on any issue wherever there seems to be “discrepancies”. From what I’ve been told (indoctrinated to believe), that Is the American Way. Some silliness about that quaint old Constitution…

    It’s a shame to me that so many people take their news from one or two sources (MSM and “Fringe Media” alike) and trust it to be 100% accurate. When looking at the vast scope of information coming out of 9/11 and the Iraq War, there sure are a lot of questions that someone should be answering. It’s either complicity or incompetence, and someone should be called to task for either breach.

    Dr. Paul listens to the people, takes just about any opportunity to present his platform, and irregardless of popular opinion, sticks to his principles.

    And why only 9% in Iowa? Who are some of the biggest welfare recipients in the country? Farmers. What do most Iowans do? Farm…and cash subsidy checks.

    Comment by Mark W. — August 15, 2007 @ 9:27 am
  77. Right on Dave.

    A lot of divisive talk on here. Very sad to see this happening. So what if Alex Jones supports Ron Paul. So what if the majority of 911 Truthers support Ron Paul. Believe it or not, there is a large support base there, whether you believe them wackos or not. You are not going to change them, they are not going to change you.

    We all need to come together on this, unify regardless of our beliefs and differing world views. This is after all what makes the Paul campaign so unique, he crosses all political paradigms, appeals to so many. If we cannot come together and stick together, Ron Paul doesn’t have a chance in hell.

    As far as the mainstream media focusing on his fringe supporters or what they might say, really now, let’s be realistic. They are going to do everything they can to smear the hell out of this man regardless of who vocally supports him because he represents such a dire threat to so many entrenched institutions.

    So long as we do our job and continue to spread the word, we can succeed. Sitting in here debating who has a right to speak their mind with regard to the campaign is kind of ironic and counterproductive.

    In the end, we are all after the same thing, getting Ron Paul elected into office. To say that this group or that group should be ostracized is ridiculous and sounds very much like what we all allegedly despise in the first place.

    Now get out there and just spread the message of liberty!

    Comment by Tom Reid — August 15, 2007 @ 9:29 am
  78. How many people have even heard of Alex Jones? Well…I live in Germany, and I’ve heard of him. He happens to be the most popular talk show host on WinAmp for whatever that’s worth. Whether the claims he makes on his show are credible or just over-hyped conspiracy theories is debatable. But i do believe that its good to have an occasional “voice out of the wilderness” warning us not to stray.

    I would also concede the media dictates the voting choices of Americans. Obama and Bill Clinton’s wife have already been ordained as the only “serious” democratic contenders and most Americans believe that. When they go to the polls on November 2008 they will not want to “waste their vote” on anyone else because the media has already programed them to think that way. The jury is still out concerning the top Republican candidate, not that it really matters. The media already has most of us believing that the Dems will win this regardless of who runs for the GOP.

    In my opinion, Ron Paul is very interesting candidate who espouses many of the Jeffersonian Republican principles that I consider to be very American. Unfortunately the true architect of the U.S. Government was not Jefferson or Madison, but Alexander Hamilton, and our nation will be doomed because of that fact.

    Comment by Dunc — August 15, 2007 @ 9:30 am
  79. The economic issue is a good point. I’m assuming you guys at the liberty papers might agree with Ron Paul on economic issues.

    Sorry that may make you just as crazy as any of the 9-11 truthers. Return to the gold standard?? Impending economic collapse?? Sounds like batshit looniness to me.

    Comment by mike — August 15, 2007 @ 9:32 am
  80. as a senior citizen,i don’t care who alex jones is or his beliefs, i watched for ron paul. don’t care who blew up the buildings, want to know why someone reached that point to get our attention. peter lance has written several books about pre 9/11 and sounds like it could have been prevented if warnings about this group had been paid attention to. at this point it is over and done with and we need to concentrate on getting ron paul elected. stop looking at the past and start working for your future. a vote is a vote regardless of your beliefs.

    Comment by dls — August 15, 2007 @ 9:34 am
  81. How do we know that a majority of Americans don’t agree with alex jones? Often times in a political environment such as ours, people don’t always state what they really believe out of fear of reprisal from the powers that be.
    Let us not forget the three “C”s of modern American life.
    Castigate, confiscate and incarcerate.
    It would seem to me that if forfieting our rights and our republic are necessary to “secure” us then we would want to investigate every angle of 911.
    I don’t like being spoon fed anything. I like to hear all sides so I can decide on my own. Who can deny that there are plenty of fishy circumstances surrounding 911?
    Forfieting our rights and our Republic is a heavy proposition. Lets make sure we are doing the right thing.

    Comment by bradman — August 15, 2007 @ 9:36 am
  82. Look, I understand that you don’t like the way Alex Jones put it in front of you, but that is not the point. The people that follow Ron Paul, and Alex, do it because they are just simply TIRED of all the LIES! You call Alex Jones a nutjob,…hhmmm… well, do you know of anyone else who studies history, and has followed the actions of some government agencies, & who also predicted 9/11? Please bring them out of the closet! Also Dr. Paul doesn’t agree with Alex Jones on all his views, pay attention to his interviews. Back to Alex, LOOK!, you are so quick to dismiss the things that he says without checking out the information yourself! LOOK HE IS ON THE MONEY 90% of THE TIME! DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK!!! LOOK AT ALL THE INFORMATION!
    We all want Dr. Ron Paul because he is honost, trustworthy, and fights for OUR Freedom, and Liberty! Listen this is not the time to be worried about the the things that don’t matter, UNITE FOR THE CAUSE of ELECTING DR. RON PAUL.

    If you want a king or queen move to England, if you want FREEDOM elect Dr. RON PAUL for PRESIDENT!

    Comment by Curt — August 15, 2007 @ 9:43 am
  83. Who cares what Alex Jones’ website has to say?

    Think of the damage Sean Hannity is doing to the rest of them. Talk about loony tunes.

    Comment by Billy — August 15, 2007 @ 9:49 am
  84. As far as 9-11 building attacks, I think Barney Fife could see that there is some slimey business going on here. Just too much evidence that is unexplained. Try and find ONE picture of a commercial airplane slamming into the Pentagon. Go ahead….find ONE picture. Remember, the pentagon is the most camera surveyed building in the world. You won’t find one. I think this is a detestable act, worthy of lynching, but we’ll never get to the bottom of it (because they hauled it all away and pronounced the verdict – Osama did it!!!!!!!) geeezzzz. Some people believe in Santa Claus too. But this is a no-win proposition for politics. I think Rep. Paul knows how to treat the issue. As for Alex Jones, I wish we had more people who were interested in busting out this brood of self serving thugs in power.

    Comment by alan laney — August 15, 2007 @ 9:53 am
  85. Alan,

    I don’t need a picture, I have a friend who heard the airplane flying low over his apartment building and saw the wreckage from the roof of his building.

    What do you got ?

    Comment by Doug Mataconis — August 15, 2007 @ 9:57 am
  86. If you watch the right angle of the WTC 7 collapse, you can see the penthouse collapse before the rest of the building even begins to fall.

    Comment by mike — August 15, 2007 @ 9:58 am
  87. i’d love to see a picture. maybe all the cameras around the pentagon dont actually work or something? i mean sometimes a huge expensive camera system is just there for show to scare people off.

    Comment by XCLR8 — August 15, 2007 @ 10:01 am
  88. Mike,

    Which means what exactly? Nothing. I’m going to throw out a wild guess here and assume that you’re not a structural, mechanical or architectural engineer.

    Fortunately, the people at this site use citations from people who are:

    Why don’t you go take up your stupid fantasies with them?

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 10:05 am
  89. “The problem for the Paul campaign is that even though most people might not know who Alex Jones is now, when they find out (and, if Ron Paul becomes an even halfway serious contender for the nomination, they will find out), it’s going to turn off most mainstream voters.”

    Yes, Doug they may find out about Jones down the line, but let’s cross that bridge when we get to it, and when these people have had the chance to hear Ron Paul speak etc. Besides, there’s plenty of smear going on already.

    Your “flashing neon sign” articles are designed to create controversy, and you know it.

    I keep surfing back in here each time I see a new article in a search, mostly out of morbid curiosity, as it has been clear to me what you are about for some time now. I’m going to resist the urge from now on. “I just surfed in, I can just surf out.”

    Comment by Paul — August 15, 2007 @ 10:11 am
  90. didnt foxnews already cram AJ down ron paul’s throat in the post-debate interview a couple weeks back? i specifically remember the infobabe bringing it up like 5 times, and even waiting until after the commercial break to bring it up yet again. she was basically doing what this author is doing right now. is this really a libertarian site?

    Comment by XCLR8 — August 15, 2007 @ 10:15 am
  91. This article, if you want to call it that, is absurd nonsense. Hell-freakin-O? Have you ever talked to a Bush supporter? Many of those people make Alex Jones sound like someone with a PhD in political science. Every candidate has “people of questionable intelligence.” And btw if Alex Jones is such a fruitloop or whatever, then why dont you go on his show and debate him? It is easy to call people names…

    Comment by Iconoclast421 — August 15, 2007 @ 10:17 am
  92. I can sense the presence of quite a few trolls here. The red flag is the name calling, a frequently used propaganda technique. When the propagandist is desparate because he can’t find any way to discredit the target on the issues, he resorts to name calling. Dr. Paul is so honorable, they can’t really call him anything negative, so they attack his supporters. This technique will continue because this is all they can do. Because Dr. Paul has such a sterling record and impeccable character, the propagandists will have to resort to character assassination of his supporters.

    Comment by Janie — August 15, 2007 @ 10:19 am
  93. hey UCrawford, why dont you take your stupid fantasies and put them wherever Mike put his stupid fantasies? (Wow wasnt that helpful?) Have you ever heard of the group “architects and engineers for 911 truth”? Does your pea size brain even comprehend why I ask such a question?

    Comment by Iconoclast421 — August 15, 2007 @ 10:21 am
  94. The problem with conspiracy theorists is that they do not follow their thinking through to see the inconsistancy. They are willing to think the government is so evil and powerful that they regularly steal elections and yet they still waste time trying to get Ron Paul elected. They say the government was willing to kill thousands of citizens on 9-11 but then think the same people would stand by helplessly when someone like Alex Jones tries to expose them. If there was truth to what Jones says he would have been killed a long time ago. If there is a conspiracy then he is part of it and he is working to make sure all you believers are easy to find.

    Comment by agentprovocateur.911 — August 15, 2007 @ 10:23 am
  95. I don’t think Alex Jones is nuts, I believe he saw a niche to market himself, and now he’s trying to make a good living presenting himself as a “ardent investigator”, which many people will buy.

    Comment by Richard — August 15, 2007 @ 10:23 am
  96. he is *definitely* a good marketer and that makes his views even more cynical to me. but i still wanna see a pentagon plan photo, dammit! lol. seriously though at least tell us that most of the cameras werent working that day or something, anything!

    Comment by XCLR8 — August 15, 2007 @ 10:27 am
  97. Iconoclast,

    My pea-sized brain finds this site sufficient to deal with 9/11 conspiracy theorist.

    Now go waste their time.

    And the reason I act so dismissively of “truther” opinions is because I’m paying them the amount of respect they deserve given the amount of solid evidence they present. None.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 10:31 am
  98. cool so you know what the deal was with the pentagon cameras then? please i’m dying to know :)

    Comment by XCLR8 — August 15, 2007 @ 10:32 am
  99. “Because Dr. Paul has such a sterling record and impeccable character, the propagandists will have to resort to character assassination of his supporters.”

    Probably won’t be necessary because there are some pretty intolerant people supporting him that will cause fractures in the grassroots efforts.

    Stop it people.

    Comment by Tom Reid — August 15, 2007 @ 10:38 am
  100. XCLR8,

    Go ask the people at this site about your camera theory:

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 10:42 am
  101. no i dont have one, and any explanation for the lack of surveillance was ever offered as far as i know, was it addressed in the 911commission b/c i dont think it was.

    Comment by XCLR8 — August 15, 2007 @ 10:46 am
  102. This bears repeating:

    We dont all agree on everything but next time you see someone trying to promote their own crap with Dr pauls message tell them to STFU please!
    Comment by RonPaul4president — August 15, 2007 @ 1:20 am

    Learn how the game is played and play to win.

    Comment by js290 — August 15, 2007 @ 10:49 am
  103. XCLR8,

    Yeah, interesting…you should go ask the people at this site about your theory (or, more accurately, hypothesis) then:

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 10:50 am
  104. Perhaps we can take Ron Paul as an example. He seems to be a friendly guy who doesn’t call people names. He cares about people. He is careful with the truth. He uses a humble discernment.

    Some have reported Ron Paul supporters as obnoxious. These were probably supporters of other candidates and so have a low patience level. Some might have a different model of the universe, so hear nonsense. Even so, the fringe-lizard loudness might get tiring at times. It might be nice when people say “oh, look I see a bunch of Ron Paul supporters” rather than “hide, there are Ron Paul supporters”. I wonder if it is even possible for Ron Paul supporters to have a wave and never shout.

    Ron Paul is running as Republican. Supporters who work with the party should do so as Republicans, comrades, standing side-by-side for conservative ideals. The Iowa GOP leadership (or was it the straw poll folks) felt it was being left out of the Ron Paul campaign. Part of that is because of the grass roots nature. It is needful to clothes our behavior in Republican clothes. Those of us who are new to Republican work, should approach people with a certain humility suitable for any neophite. Those who are not able to join the Republicans, are guests at many functions and can politely explain that they indicate that there is Ron Paul support even outside the party.

    Comment by Thomas — August 15, 2007 @ 10:58 am
  105. Thomas,

    I think you’re right on that point. Paul can be prickly at times, but he comes off as an affable fellow and he discusses issues rationally and sanely and it’s often a strength for him. The problem’s not with Paul, just with a very limited but visible portion of Paul’s following that can very easily influence the course of election by tying (in the public’s eye) their groundless conspiracy theories and personal agendas to the candidate, which will only serve to alienate the mainstream voters that Paul’s campaign needs.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 11:04 am
  106. Anyone is entitled to believe what they want and listen to who they want. But that does not mean one should use your personal beliefs or words of others to advocate for your candidate of choice, in this case Ron Paul. I admit, I am not strongly pro-life but I do feel very strongly about other issues that Dr. Paul advocates and am willing to bend in one area so as not to forsake the much greater whole. Does this mean that if somebody asks me Paul’s stance on Roe or life in general that I will not reply with his position? Of course not – it is Dr. Paul that is running, not me. The campaign asked all the meetup groups to AVOID POLICY DEBATES when canvassing. When I approach others I do not also hand out literature about other causes nor am I wearing buttons or other slogans for non-Paul groups.

    People need to understand – YOU ARE ADVOCATING FOR RON PAUL AND NOBODY ELSE. Not your ideas, not Alex Jones, not 9/11 truthers or anything else. You need to keep all of that other stuff separate from the Paul campaign. You may not like the idea, but you are just a cog in the campaign wheel. And a small one at that. But as soon as you begin to mix other stuff with Ron Paul you open a pandoras box of negatives for the campaign. This campaign is an underdog already and all their efforts should be directed at spreading Dr. Paul’s message AND NOT EXPLAINING YOURS OR YOUR ASSOCIATION WITH HIM WHICH WASTES TIME, MONEY AND POTENTIALLY MANY VOTES.

    The person who said a political campaign is selling a product is exactly correct. Remember the Tylenol scare? It took exactly one instance to turn people off of Tylenol for a long time. Dont be that instance for Dr. Paul.

    Comment by mike — August 15, 2007 @ 11:05 am
  107. Thomas,

    And I think your view of how supporters should adapt their behavior to integrate into the GOP at large is very wise as well. That’s definitely a “seller’s” mindset and we need more of it. Nicely stated.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 11:08 am
  108. Mike,

    We may disagree on the 9/11 stuff, but we’re in complete agreement on what you just wrote. Well put.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 11:09 am
  109. Assuming that you’re the same Mike I responded to earlier on 9/11, of course.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 11:11 am
  110. Let’s not throw any Ron Paul supporters off the bus, just because they’re a little farther out on the fringe than we are. Some of these fringe groups represent a huge number of prospective votes, and they don’t really have any other candidates to turn to.

    Turnout in the primaries is low, so we need all the help we can get. A lot of what they are saying doesn’t help the campaign, but the best response is either to ignore it and refocus people on what Ron Paul himself says, or to politely and privately suggest to them to keep a low profile.

    Highlighting the worst offenses only keeps them in the spotlight.

    Comment by Craig — August 15, 2007 @ 11:22 am
  111. Wow, so many know it alls about everything, however hundreds of questions remain unanswered about 9-11. Perhaps on that we can all agree, especially since the laws of physics seemed to have malfunctioned that day in NYC. You all have the right to believe what you want and buy the spoonfed official story, but any reserach you do will make you question what the “official” story says happened. Wake up America! America is NOT a Free Country and American Government run schools do NOT teach you the truth about issues. Most of you need to wake up and see what is happening and support Dr. Paul because of what he stands for. I keep hearing that he’s way out there in Left field. Since when has the Constitution and rule of LAW been out in Left field?

    Comment by RAY KIRKUS — August 15, 2007 @ 11:24 am
  112. RAY KIRKUS,

    Yeah, so many people don’t seem to know the answers to 9/11. For those people, I usually recommend this site:

    You should check it out.


    You’re right in theory. Problem is that the overwhelming majority of “truthers” I’ve encountered don’t actually respond to politeness or logical arguments (and I have tried before). In many of their minds anyone who tries to use those tactics to reason with them is merely a pawn of the “establishment” trying to silence them. Frankly, the only thing that seems to work is ridicule and mockery. If there was a more polite way to achieve the same end, I’d be all for using it.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 11:31 am
  113. Heh Ucrawford, that is a second mike posting. Though I do agree with mike completely.

    IMO Doug is the one that has brought up the point on 9/11 and that is the only reason I discussed it at all to begin with. If he wants to use the 911 Truth movement’s support for Ron Paul as an issue to divide his camp up then I would like to point out why Paul’s position is a position of unity and not divisive.

    My point on 911 is the government should be more willing to discuss it and continue to investigate it further. There are inconsistencies and I want them investigated until we know everything there is to possibly know. Is it too much to ask? Can we admit that the 911 commission wasn’t given the full power and scope it needed to investigate? And if so can we continue the investigation and let the chips fall where they may, despite whatever evidence that we might find?

    What needs to be realized is that we people are not just some crazy kook or wild man for this viewpoint. There are scholars, architects, engineers, pilots, on BOTH sides of the issue. I cannot claim that I have a superior expertise than either one. I am just a simple citizen who wants a higher amount of accountability from our government.

    Accountability on whatever issue it might be – whether its 9/11, FEMA’s handling of Katrina, the unconstitutional practice of the Fed, the housing market boom and bust, etc, etc.

    If the government re-opened the investigation today, would those of you who are adamantly opposed to the 911 Truth movement take such great offense?? Why does it upset you that there are voters that support a candidate for his position on the 911 issue? (which is to merely continue investigation)

    Comment by mike too — August 15, 2007 @ 11:47 am
  114. Sometimes, people who are too sensitive about being labeled “nutjobs” themselves think they can escape judgment by going on the offense, emphatically calling others “nutjobs.”

    Comment by Eric — August 15, 2007 @ 11:54 am
  115. Thomas and Mike are right. You can vote for whoever you want and you can believe in any other cause you want. But you shouldn’t campaign for Ron Paul at the same time that you’re campaigning for 1 of your other causes. To be honest I don’t care if you think Martians took down the Twin Towers as long as you don’t try to connect that position to the Paul campaign.

    Comment by Bob — August 15, 2007 @ 11:57 am
  116. Mike Too,

    Actually the site I gave the link to ( ) points out that there isn’t a lot of science or qualified engineers on the side of the “truthers”. I’m not just trying to be dismissive when I post this link…I post it because their arguments are solid.

    And I’d be against opening a new investigation because I consider it a waste of money (just like most government programs) and because there’s no compelling evidence to indicate they got it wrong. And because I believe that if Ron Paul got elected, ran another committee, and came up with the same answers, most of the “truthers” would simply claim that Ron Paul had somehow been subverted by the system. Conspiracy theorists by nature distrust the government and I find it highly unlikely that they’ll buy any government inquiry that contradicts their own pre-held opinions, because in the end it’s not really truth that they’re looking for but more reasons to hate the government.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 12:04 pm
  117. Dr. Paul has explained on FOX News that just as the media does not endorse everything he says, he does not endorse all of the views of every media outlet he appears on.

    While the name Alex Jones may leave a bad taste in the mouths of some people, at least he is giving exposure and name recognition to Dr. Paul.

    Personaly I do feel that there is a deliberate effort by certain media outlets to suppress the name ‘Ron Paul’ and anything positive is deleted or blown off as ‘spam’. It is painfully apparent to anyone who uses the internet for more than porn that this country is in trouble and the only person who cares about it and has a potential to fix it is being called a whacko or a kook, along with anyone who supports him.

    Alex Jones has lots of theories, and he does back what he says with sources. He is also called a whacko and a kook. While I may not agree with everything Alex says and does, I support his right to say what he says and do what he does.

    It is up to us to decide who is right and who is wrong.

    Comment by Dan Warner — August 15, 2007 @ 12:05 pm
  118. Yeah I really get pissed off when people try to connect Ron Paul to their own cospiracy theories, like all the 9/11 “truthers”. Paul has consistently denied believing all that BS and people need to stop trying to attatch his name to it.

    Comment by Timothy Boyle — August 15, 2007 @ 12:07 pm
  119. I’m a Ron Paul supporter but I must agree the one thing that turns me off the most about his campaign is the association with 9/11 truthers and other such ilk. Whether fair or not, the fact that these people choose to associate and support Ron Paul makes you think its possible he agrees with them. I personally don’t think he does agree but he needs to do a better job of debunking that possibility. Its worth it to his campaign to lose some 9/11 truth supporters if it helps him move more to the middle of mainstream America. If I was his campaign advisor I’d be telling him to state more often that he does not believe in a 9/11 conspiracy.

    Comment by Thomas — August 15, 2007 @ 12:18 pm
  120. One of the ways we can separate the honest from the dishonest is that the dishonest will pretend that a candidate is responsible for the views of those who support him. Another way is that the dishonest will resort to name-calling rather than refuting. Both of these tactics will eventually be aimed at whoever is successful and the more successful Ron Paul is, the more we will hear nonsense like this about his supporters, since his positions can’t be refuted.

    Comment by John Howard — August 15, 2007 @ 12:19 pm
  121. Ok, I will help those of you who believe people in our government would not do such a thing.

    1.) NORTHWOODS – Went all the way past the Chiefs of Staff, and the only person who said no was Kennedy, that was then. Believe what you want secrets can be kept.

    2.) BUILDING 7 – Fell close to free fall speed, never hit by plane, fires not hot enough to leave pools of moulten steel for weeks, Silverstien PBS video which is very important. BBC reporting the fall 20 minutes before it did, then hid the one time shown clip.

    3.) SECOND PLANE – The CNN footage of the 2nd plane as it comes into the picture til it goes into the building, has extra equippment on the bottom left of the plane. (NOT ANY SHADOW)

    4.) CHENEY – He is in a bunker before the plane hits the Pentagon. Head of Transportation was in there also, and Cheney was told the plane was getting closer and closer and he said “Of course the order still stands have you hear anything to the contrary?!”

    5.) BUSH – Lies about seeing the plane hit.(look at the time line… no way!) Bush sits in classroom for a long time after hearing 2nd plane hits. Knowing he had to be a target too, he still sits there putting those people in possible danger too.(highly publicized trip) Why did the secret service not pull him out of the classroom, and protect our commander and chief?

    6.) 9/11 Commission Report – Why was it NOT an independent investigation?(look at the ties… NO WAY!) Why was building 7 never mentioned in the report? The F.B.I. doesn’t have Osoma Bin Laden as the #1 on their WANTED list because THEY SAY they have no evidence. Weird how some of these terrorist on the planes are STILL ALIVE!!!!!!

    7.) WORLD TRADE CENTER COMPLEX – Why was the crime scene destroyed? Why were the first responders and others told the air was fine to breathe? Why did the designer of the buildings say it could have withstood multiple hits by airliners? Why has Bloomburg now say only 1 more year of health coverage for the first responders then they are on their own?(OUR HEROS ARE DYING!!)

    8.) PHONE CALLS – I have travelled and never able to make cell phone calls from planes.(amazing how many worked that day…hmmm…) Look at the independent tests done on cell phones and altitudes… NO WAY!!! Why is major airlines after 9/11 spend tons of money for cell phone technology, if it worked so well before? All the years of calling my mother, I never used my first and last name when calling her.

    9.) PENTAGON – Where are all the video footage? Why did the F.B.I. take video tapes from privately owned businesses? Pretty sure that airspace is some of the most protected in the world. Go ahead and believe they have no other footage… I DON’T!

    10.) Their is way too much more, if I had more time I would list them all for you minority that still believes the “official story” which is the “OFFICIAL CONSPIRACY THEORY!”

    Please stop with the, how you guys are nuts crap! GET EDUCATED!
    ask yourself why no one was demoted, or put in prison for the gross incompatence that day, and why many where PROMOTED?!?!?

    Comment by Curt — August 15, 2007 @ 12:25 pm
  122. Curt,

    Interesting theories…most of them have, of course, been debunked in depth over at this site:

    You should go take up your disagreements with them.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 12:32 pm
  123. The question is really how many of Alex Jones’s listeners, truthers, (hmm, there’s a strange insult.. truth-er…) conspiracy nuts, John-Birchers, Isaac Walton leaguers, tree-hugging, granola-eating, pot-smoking, long-haired FM types can be convinced to vote for Ron Paul. People support Ron Paul, because they agree with Ron Paul, not because Ron Paul agrees with them.

    I frankly don’t care what any Ron Paul supporter *believes* or *says*. I don’t care if they paint themselves as a Ron Paul sign and dash plastic baby dolls into red paint on the sidewalk. It doesn’t matter when his supporters do good things (donate food to a children’s shelter) it shouldn’t matter when his supporters do bad things.

    It doesn’t mean Ron Paul believes those things, it means the speaker or actor *hopes* you will believe that Ron Paul believes those things.(whether or not the thing in question is true, good, false, and/or evil.)

    No candidate needs to be embarrassed about their supporters. This is a logical fallacy, and we should not even give it the time of day. Life is too short to argue about the theoretical effects of the actions of people we can not control, based on a logical error.

    Besides every candidate has some supporters like this.


    Kevin Houston

    Comment by Kevin Houston — August 15, 2007 @ 12:40 pm
  124. All they say in the article is “One has to ask the question why did 12,000 people buy tickets at $35 each and not vote?” What’s wrong with that? Ant evidence that this is hurting the campaign? The campaign is “growing by leaps and bounds” according to HQ.

    Comment by Brad — August 15, 2007 @ 1:04 pm
  125. 12,000 people didn’t buy tickets and not vote. The tickets were bought by the different campaigns and independent groups. Asking the question might me OK but I suspect they’re suggesting that there is some sort of anti-Paul conspiracy. Most people have barely heard of Ron Paul and the idea that there’s an anti-Paul conspiracy sounds crazy.

    Comment by Bob — August 15, 2007 @ 1:14 pm
  126. UCrawford,
    Look Sweetheart,
    I have seen them too. Do you really believe those…lmao!!!! Wow, I thought maybe you had some good information that really would explain just a few of those points I written above. Keep looking, and maybe you will really find an answer that will help explain one or two points, or you’ll have to admit your world around you is not the world you understood it to be. The facts are the facts, you can put paint on a pig, but you still have a PIG. You either don’t understand how things work and are naive, or you are part of the disinformation. Either way, I do not know you , and would ask that you don’t compile blatently bad debunks. You should watch those and use a little common sense. I do appreciate you, you sound like you might really want to know the truth.

    Comment by Curt — August 15, 2007 @ 1:34 pm
  127. No candidate needs to be embarrassed about their supporters. This is a logical fallacy…

    There’s nothing logical about a popular election.

    Comment by js290 — August 15, 2007 @ 1:34 pm
  128. Your argument has no merit; Bush seized the White House with the support of the fanatical doomsday Pat Robertson cult.

    Comment by Tony Bolagna — August 15, 2007 @ 1:42 pm
  129. Curt,

    Yeah, funny how I tend to be more swayed by science and logical, coherent arguments rather than a semi-literate typist with a chip on his shoulder and a dearth of physical evidence. You should present your “theories” to this site:

    They’ve got a hall of fame for conspiracy theorists, and your letter just might make the cut. I’m sure that they’ll be happy to listen to you discuss how your “common sense” does a better job of explaining 9/11 than actual physical science.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 1:46 pm
  130. Tony,
    What “fanatical doomsday cult” does Pat Robertson belong to?
    (I have a feeling I’m going to be sorry I asked.)

    Comment by Bob — August 15, 2007 @ 1:52 pm
  131. “The 700 Club” :)

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 1:56 pm
  132. Articles such as this could easily be packaged into a tertiary commentary article titled “I Want The Military-Industrial Complex To Keep Rolling Forward And Ruling Me “

    Comment by Backspace — August 15, 2007 @ 2:19 pm
  133. Hi Doug,

    Boy you sure are quiet. Wanna talk conspiracy? Sure… let’s talk conspiracy.


    Is there a MSM campaign to black out or marginalize the presidential campaign of Dr. Ron Paul?

    A simple yes or no answer in your opinion will suffice.


    Lost in Samoa

    Comment by Lost_in_Samoa — August 15, 2007 @ 2:24 pm
  134. Question,

    Is there a MSM campaign to black out or marginalize the presidential campaign of Dr. Ron Paul?

    A simple yes or no answer in your opinion will suffice.

    No, Dr. Paul’s campaign is getting about the level of MSM coverage that someone who’s only getting 3% in the polls normally gets.

    In fact, I’d say he’s probably getting more coverage than his poll numbers reflect. He’s been on Tucker Carlson at least twice, Lou Dobbs twice, Jon Stewart, Bill Mahr, ABC’s This Week, Sean Hannity’s TV show. Not bad for someone who isn’t really showing any indication of widespread support just yet.

    Comment by Doug Mataconis — August 15, 2007 @ 2:31 pm
  135. UCrawford,

    Your link is embaressing to your cause. As is my spelling to mine. I know for a fact you have not studied out anything. You want your voice to be heard loud and clear. Your moto should be “SCREW the FACTS”. Look all I am asking you now, is to take some time to listen to ALL the facts. You arenm’t related to Cheney, or Bush are you… ;)

    Comment by Curt — August 15, 2007 @ 2:34 pm
  136. UCrawford,

    Bush had said there was no where he could hide that we wouldn’t find him. Osoma we were told committed this horrible act. The”reason” we went into Iraq. Now we get this…. hhmmm..

    Comment by Curt — August 15, 2007 @ 2:41 pm
  137. Curt,

    No, I’m not related to Cheney or Bush, nor do I work for or take a paycheck from the U.S. government now. As I said before on this thread I previously worked for 10 years in the intelligence community with a high-level clearance, so unless you’ve got a similar background I find it unlikely you’ve had more access to or knowledge of what’s actually “going on” in the world than I did. The argument for most of the truthers is that 9/11 was a government plot and the site I linked to ( ) effectively debunks every major argument the “truthers” have brought up with objective, scientific analysis and logical, coherent arguments. I’ve yet to see the same quality presentation from any “truther” that the site I linked to ( ) or my own personal and professional experience hasn’t already shown to be either inaccurate, misinterpreted, or a blatant lie.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 2:42 pm
  138. Curt,

    Such an interesting link…you should show it to the people at this site so they can tell you how it does not demonstrate that the government ordered or allowed 9/11, but does demonstrate that the government intentionally misused 9/11 to justify invading Iraq (a point that I’ve repeatedly made myself):

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 2:46 pm
  139. Great, who did you work with, I really must know.

    Comment by Curt — August 15, 2007 @ 2:47 pm
  140. United States Army and the NSA. I left government service last year because I couldn’t stomach working for Bush anymore. Even though he did not order or allow 9/11 to happen.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 2:49 pm
  141. Great! now we are getting some where! You know that it would have been procedure to remove Bush from that school. Do you deny that?

    Comment by Curt — August 15, 2007 @ 2:50 pm
  142. By the way thank you for not supporting this man who keeps giving himself more authority every month.

    Comment by Curt — August 15, 2007 @ 2:51 pm
  143. If there was a plane crashing into the school or terrorists attacking the school, sure. Otherwise, no. There is no requirement to evacuate the president anywhere if there is no direct threat against him.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 2:53 pm
  144. Rather than carrying on with all this bickering amongst ourselves, we should nurture and embrace our difference of opinions. We have the opportunity to turn what many would consider Ron Paul’s campaigns biggest weakness into one of his strongest selling points; the fact that he can unify so many people of differing opinions from across the political spectrum in a time when the country probably has not been so divided since the civil war. Is freedom of speech and the tolerance of others viewpoints not one of the rights afforded us through the Constitution? If we cannot live according to those principles and set a positive example, then Dr. Paul’s campaign will be seen as riddled with empty rhetoric and is doomed to fail before it even had a chance to get off the ground.

    Comment by Tony Bolagna — August 15, 2007 @ 2:53 pm
  145. If there was a plane crashing into the school or terrorists attacking the school, sure. Otherwise, no. There is no requirement to evacuate the president anywhere if there is no direct threat against him.

    Exactly. There was no reason to leave the school immediately and, at the moment, no indication that the attacks had spread beyond New York.

    Compare the morning of 9/11 with the afternoon. As you may recall, Bush did not get back to D.C. until late in the day, after making a stop at an Air Force Base in Nebraska. It later turned out that the Secret Service was insisting that he stay away from D.C. until it was clear that the threat had subsided.

    There was some criticism of Bush at the time for not immediately coming back to Washington, but it makes pretty good sense when you think about it.

    Comment by Doug Mataconis — August 15, 2007 @ 2:56 pm
  146. Sorry, for most of the back and forth, this was my round about way of showing that although most people have different opinions in the world, a bit of communication can go further towards piece, then any bombshell. If you ever get to Ohio, I would by you dinner to pick your brain, and to support Ron Paul.

    Comment by Curt — August 15, 2007 @ 2:57 pm
  147. oops, “buy” :)

    Comment by Curt — August 15, 2007 @ 2:58 pm
  148. Doug,
    Your eagerness to jump into this 9/11 debate causes me to seriously question your original intent on writing this piece.

    Comment by Tony Bolagna — August 15, 2007 @ 2:59 pm
  149. And this site ( ) effectively debunked the accusations that Bush’s travel timeline means he was in on it.

    FYI…I’m going to keep posting this link as my only real response to 9/11 until you “truthers” come up with some actual evidence that hasn’t already been debunked by this site.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 3:01 pm
  150. Doug,

    They knew we were under attack, and you think the school was a safe place, is that what you are saying? Why do you think they didn’t have an airliner headed to the school???

    Comment by Curt — August 15, 2007 @ 3:02 pm
  151. Your eagerness to jump into this 9/11 debate causes me to seriously question your original intent on writing this piece.

    My intent was clear. To continue stating what I’ve said before —- if and when the Paul campaign makes it big, mainstream voters are going to be turned off by his association with people like Alex Jones and the 9/11 Truthers.

    Back in the 50′s, Bill Buckley was at the forefront of disassociating mainstream conservatism with the likes of the John Birch Society. Congressman Paul would, I think, be wise to consider disassociating himself from people like Alex Jones.

    Comment by Doug Mataconis — August 15, 2007 @ 3:03 pm
  152. UCrawford,

    You can’t flip up links to these lame sites, and say they debunk the the 9/11 truthers. I went to that site a second ago, and 1/3 of them won’t even play. hhmmmm… wonder why.

    Comment by Curt — August 15, 2007 @ 3:04 pm
  153. Curt,

    I’m not going to get any more involved in this debate than I already have gotten. If you really want to know the truth about 9/11, go to the website Crawford has been linking to and pick yourself up a copy of the Popular Mechanics article where they pretty much debunked the science behind arguments of the 9/11 Truthers. I believe its available in book form from Amazon now.

    Comment by Doug Mataconis — August 15, 2007 @ 3:05 pm
  154. Tony,

    Doug’s original intent was apparently to illustrate how the “truthers” tend to sidetrack Ron Paul’s candidacy with their personal agenda for yet another pointless government inquiry into 9/11. In that respect, he’s succeeded because a large number of “truthers” bit and sidetracked the Ron Paul debate with the 9/11 conspiracy theories.

    The point he’s trying to make to the “truthers” is, if you want Ron Paul to get elected don’t bite when someone asks or baits you into talking about 9/11 and don’t try to tie your opinions on 9/11 to Ron Paul’s candidacy. It’s a waste of time and it ultimately hurts your candidate with the swing voters.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 3:06 pm
  155. Curt,

    You’d have to ask them why. There’s a contact e-mail on the site for the administrator.

    And no, I don’t work for or with that site.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 3:07 pm
  156. “My intent was clear. To continue stating what I’ve said before —- if and when the Paul campaign makes it big, mainstream voters are going to be turned off by his association with people like Alex Jones and the 9/11 Truthers.”

    Your intent is clearly to turn this forum into a 9/11 debate to feed and showcase your view that all Ron Paul supporters are 9/11 truthers.

    Comment by Tony Bolagna — August 15, 2007 @ 3:08 pm
  157. And I didn’t have problems with any of the links I used on the site. Of course I was more interested in the written tech stuff than the video clips.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 3:09 pm
  158. Tony,

    No…Doug did not say that all Ron Paul supporters are “truthers” nor did he even imply that. His statement is that a vocal minority is hijacking the image of the campaign for a non-starter of an issue and it’s going to hurt Paul’s chances.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 3:13 pm
  159. Tony,

    Your intent is clearly to turn this forum into a 9/11 debate to feed and showcase your view that all Ron Paul supporters are 9/11 truthers.

    Wrong. I didn’t say that at all, or even imply it.

    Comment by Doug Mataconis — August 15, 2007 @ 3:15 pm
  160. “United States Army and the NSA.” UCrawford, that explains it all right there!!!

    I see NO ONE has told me how building #7 fell…you call people like me “fringe” I call people like you “stupid”…….one day it will all become clear and Ron Paul supporters will find that posting on websites and making youtube videos wasn’t quite enough to keep their Country, only then will they know that us “truthers” (people for TRUTH) were right and the Powers that control Earth were far worse and evil than they could even imagine.

    Dr. Ron Paul is a GREAT MAN and should be imatated in his ways, he is exceptional!!! BUT, he is NOT right on everything and he has NOT spent time researching 911 past the offical 911 Report……ask him!

    Now for the record, I DON’T bring up Ron Paul and 911 in the same conversation, because they really have nothing to do with each other, HOWEVER, when people write crap like this article and people talk crap like some on this page, then I will fight back!!!

    It is simply naieve people like you folks that got America into the trouble it is in, if Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman don’t PROVE to you that the gov. will lie and trick you………then you deserve what you get.

    You will be chipped soon and Ron Paul will be a memory, the ONLY chance we have is that people who DEMAND TRUTH never stop, never let the ignorant ones stop you from doing what must be done, first they ridicule you, then they attack you then after all the RISKS are gone, they JOIN YOU!

    Comment by Ron Paul Supporter — August 15, 2007 @ 3:21 pm
  161. “No…Doug did not say that all Ron Paul supporters are “truthers” nor did he even imply that. His statement is that a vocal minority is hijacking the image of the campaign for a non-starter of an issue and it’s going to hurt Paul’s chances.”

    You made this point without entering the debate, doing so tells me you are trying to instigate.

    Comment by Tony Bolagna — August 15, 2007 @ 3:22 pm
  162. I guess you all forget the 1st time they tried to bring down the towers, and who supplied the hardware. Oh, and forget who George W. Bush’s grandfather was, and what he was caught doing. You say you’re previous intelligence, yet all of the debunk sites you are saying are good aren’t. I would love to be able to accept them, but 1 + 1 can not equal 13. Seems as though answers won’t surface until either time passes by, or a real investigation happens. They spent les then $1 million dollars investigating 9/11, and $5 million on Clinton’s sex life. I’m mad now, I could have gotten a job at the head of the NSA, CIA, or F.B.I…. dang it.

    Comment by Curt — August 15, 2007 @ 3:31 pm
  163. Not to mention that we can’t get Meetup members to actually campaign in the normal venues…they seem to be happy to have paint parties amongst themselves…thinking this will gain support?

    Comment by Crankpot — August 15, 2007 @ 3:32 pm
  164. “Ron Paul Supporter”,

    First, this link ( ) discusses Building 7.

    Second, I probably hate government more than you do, I probably trust government less than you do, and I have better justifications. And, unlike you, my reasoning’s not based on pure fantasy unencumbered by facts or proof.

    Third, yes…I worked for the military and with the NSA. Since I’m assuming you don’t possess a background in either intelligence or military service I’m assuming that means I have far more expertise on and knowledge of the government, the military and intelligence operations than you do. And my position is that 9/11 “truthers” are completely wrong and that it was what the government said it was, an al-Qaeda attack on the U.S. Unless you have solid evidence to prove otherwise beyond a reasonable doubt, you have no case, except to call me a liar. And if your remark was intended to imply that I’m a liar, my response to tell you (again) to go shit in your hat.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 3:36 pm
  165. Curt,

    Employment at the NSA, CIA, FBI or military intelligence is actually open to most people without a criminal background or serious mental problems. With some of them, you don’t even need a college education. If digging for truth is so important to you, then go sign up and find out for yourself (like I did). Otherwise, you’re all hat and no cattle.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 3:40 pm
  166. UCrawford,

    You know when people say “Your to close to the project, you need an outside persective.” Could that be you?

    Comment by Curt — August 15, 2007 @ 3:42 pm
  167. lmao….

    Comment by Curt — August 15, 2007 @ 3:42 pm
  168. Curt,

    My perspective has always been an outside one, even when I was inside. As I said, I probably hate government more and trust government less than you guys do. That was no different from when I was in service. And I certainly wasn’t the only libertarian in government service…which is yet another reason why the 9/11 conspiracies are so laughable. As the site I linked to demonstrated ( ) the idea that such a conspiracy could remain under wraps is completely laughable considering the sheer number of people that would have to be involved (note that I did your work for you and altered the link to the appropriate page in this argument).

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 3:46 pm
  169. WWHHHOOAAAA…. I do not hate our government… I believe they need more transparency, and oversite. And stop linking that weak link up… really… it is in poor taste to you arguement. REALLY.

    Comment by Curt — August 15, 2007 @ 3:49 pm
  170. Realizing the effects of global warming on the Voting machines is the real truth. Its mass conspiracy acted out by the mindless drones of the world who consume coke and genically altered foods.

    Also, the ones behind it aren’t even from planet Earth. Wake UP people. We need to stop eating products and consuming products OR the Martians are going to alter the elections in favor of the terrists who are hiding their in.tin.”I”

    Ron Paul Revolution is about Constitutional Freedoms, please lay off bargaining with any other issues…keep the eye on the ball. Use common sense and take pictures of the monsters and trolls next time you see them.

    Comment by SuperDooper — August 15, 2007 @ 3:51 pm
  171. u.s. c.i.a. created the mujahadin including osama,in the 80′s to fight the communists.thats right,our government and pakastani i.s.i created alc.i.a.da[look it up]pakastani i.s.i. chief funded mahammod atta,the lead hijacker on 9/11,[hes supposedly still alive]just because youve been in the military doesnt mean you know everything.many victims family members of 9/11 came out and exposed our connection with i.s.i. and please stop just calling us nutbags and find out were all slaves to fascism.[i hope you know what that means]we continue to fund i.s.i. while osama is in pakastan,while they have nukes.what about operation northwoods where our government plans staged terror attacks[abc news]i suggest you look it up before calling us nutjobs,when you didnt even look at the evidence.your the nut jobs for not knowing we created this problem in the first place.

    Comment by zach allen — August 15, 2007 @ 3:53 pm
  172. Curt,

    I don’t hate our Constitution (because I gladly swore an oath to it when I joined our military and it was designed to limit government and maximize freedom) but I hate the overreaching pot of corruption and theft that our government has become (mainly because they stopped adhering to the Constitution long ago). I hate taxation, and socialist programs to redistribute wealth, and military interventionism, and foreign aid to corrupt governments, and free trade restrictions, and regulation of non-violent private enterprise. Basically, I hate everything that George W. Bush represents as our president (except for his refusal to raise taxes). And yet I still don’t believe the 9/11 conspiracies that say he was involved.

    And why?

    Because none of you has any proof that hasn’t been easily de-bunked by this site ( ). That’s why I plan on voting for Ron Paul, actually.

    So either come up with a well-reasoned, scientifically-based, factually supported argument that coherently disputes this site’s position or don’t waste my time with your 9/11 bullshit.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 4:00 pm
  173. Does that mean dinner’s of when you come through Ohio?

    Comment by Curt — August 15, 2007 @ 4:09 pm
  174. think,why is our leadership,outsourcing all our jobs to china,while the middle class shrinks into poverty[inequality grows]untill we live in a society governed by nothing less than a millitary dictatership of elite serving slaves turning in to a tyrannical government.[federalized police]congress dint declare war,the president did]weve lost controll of this country because of the executive branch.i dont understand why you call us nutjobs.bush is the biggest nutjob for not securing the mexican border along time ago.[its being reported terrorist our couming in our border.some of you people,i just dont know when youll learn not to trust the government period.stop calling us nutjobs and stop the corperations and elite from destroying our country.its the twenty first century,we have endless possibility to help everything.endless possibility.yet our currency has been devalued by over half.go to any website that you can translate the fee to differnt national currencies.youll find the dollar is .75 compared to euro 1.35.[im not stupid,i know what this means

    Comment by zach allen — August 15, 2007 @ 4:15 pm
  175. I had offered to buy you dinner and chat politics, if you made your way through OHIO!

    Comment by Curt — August 15, 2007 @ 4:16 pm
  176. Zach,

    You are on the right track brother man.

    Comment by Curt — August 15, 2007 @ 4:18 pm
  177. I love Ron Paul and I am also a frequent visitor to Alex Jones website. Havinf said that I do agree that Alex does go overboard sometimes with the stories.


    Comment by Troy — August 15, 2007 @ 4:20 pm
  178. 14 hijackers came from saudi arabia.theres no proof osama bin laden did anything,first he said he didnt do it then all of a sudden he changed his mind,if he didnt confess we would have no evidence against osama for the 9/11 attacks[no evidence.[prove me wrong on that][we created osama]why would he confess with no evidence against him for 9/ reported hijackers still alive all over the world( ). did that site prove opposite.

    Comment by zach allen — August 15, 2007 @ 4:22 pm
  179. thanks you curt im glad to see responses already,its ausome.

    Comment by zach allen — August 15, 2007 @ 4:28 pm
  180. stupid spelling[accident]

    Comment by zach allen — August 15, 2007 @ 4:29 pm
  181. Curt,

    If that invitation was directed at me, much obliged. Unfortunately it’s unlikely I’d end up in Ohio anytime in the forseeable future. Nothing against the state or you, just that I never have occasion to travel through there and frankly a prolonged 9/11 discussion isn’t much of a draw for me. I’ve already heard most of the arguments that have been brought up and the site I directed you to has effectively de-bunked most of them.

    I usually try to restrict my political debates to online formats anyway and I think a personal meeting wouldn’t accomplish significantly different results. It would be unlikely that my positions would differ much in an in-person format, nor would my ability to be persuaded off of them without more concrete proof than what’s been offered.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 4:29 pm
    Order W199I-WF-213589 – FBI hindered in Al-Qaeda investigation

    - US agents told to “back off” Bin Ladens (ANANOVA)
    - Bush Thwarted FBI probe against Bin Ladens (AFP)
    - FBI told to “back off” investigating Bin Laden family before the attacks on Sept. 11th: BBC Newsnight Video
    - Has someone been sitting on the FBI? BBC Newsnight transcript
    - Bush took FBI Agents of bin Laden family trail (TIMES OF INDIA)
    - FBI claims Bin Laden inquiry was frustrated (LONDON GUARDIAN)
    - FBI ‘was told to back off bin Laden family’ (SYDNEY MORNING HERALD)
    - Another FBI Agent Blows the Whistle on 9-11
    - FBI agent: I was stymied in terror probe
    - Whistleblower Complains of FBI Obstruction
    - Judicial Watch press conference featuring special FBI agent Robert Wright – impeded from terrorist investigations
    - Scandal Inside the FBI: Did G-Men Miss the Boat on 9-11?
    - FBI Lawyer Tells of Terror ‘Roadblock’
    - Minneapolis agent says FBI headquarters rewrote requests for search warrants for Moussaoui
    - Agent Claims FBI Supervisor Thwarted Probe
    - Agent blasts FBI over 11 September ‘cover-up’
    - Angry FBI agents joked about al Qaeda mole at HQ
    - Another FBI Agent Blows the Whistle – New evidence that the Bureau quashed another terror probe before 9/11
    - FBI Agent: Bureau Prevented Terror Probe
    - The ignored warning: FBI officer prevented from prosecuting future 9/11 hijacker


    Terrorists trained at US flight schools

    - Venice Airport Used for Covert Ops: What they’re hiding down in Venice, Florida
    - MadCowMorningNews coverage of Venice flight schools
    - Pensacola NAS Link Faces More Scrutiny
    - Alleged Hijackers May Have Trained At US Bases
    - FBI Knew Terrorists were Using Flight Schools
    - Did Terrorist Pilots Train at U.S. Military Schools?
    - Visas for terrorist pilots surface
    - Six months later, hijackers’ visas arrive at flight school
    - 6 Months Late, I.N.S. Notifies Flight School of Hijackers’ Visas
    - Bush ‘displeased’ over hijackers’ visas
    - Reaction of Senator Patrick Leahy to FBI warnings about terrorists being trained at US flight schools
    - Alert FBI agent gave heads-up in July on Arabs in aviation
    - FBI Warned of Training Before 11th
    - FBI Agent Warned of Suspicious Flight Students Last Summer
    - FBI cover-up of Mohamed Atta’s last days
    - Bin Laden: the former CIA ‘client’ obsessed with training pilots
    - Hijack Plot Suspicions Raised With FBI in Aug.
    - Flight school memo wasn’t passed on
    - Senator seeks Sept. 11 FBI investigation
    - Pre-Attack Memo Cited Bin Laden
    - Author of FBI Memo Praised for Expertise
    - F.B.I. Knew for Years About Terror Pilot Training
    - FBI Pigeonholed Agent’s Request – Canvassing of Flight Schools For Al Qaeda Was Rejected
    - Agent told CIA of flight students
    - Agent Linked Pilot Trainees, Bin Laden
    - Terrorist Ties Cited in Memo
    - Justice Probed FBI on 9/11 Memo
    - Visa scam at US Embassy allowed terrorists with links to 9/11 to enter country illegally


    Why the attacks occurred on September 11th: ’9- 11 Drills’

    - On 9/11, CIA Was Running Simulation of a Plane Crashing into a Building
    - Agency was to simulate plane crash on 9-11
    - Aviation Week’s Aviation Week & Space Technology Article (NORAD Drill)
    - U.S. SPY Satellite Agency’s Mock 9/11 Drill Exposes Administration Lies


    Protection of Zacarias Moussaoui

    The Moussaoui-Chechen Coverup [1] [2] [3]
    - Access Denied – Minneapolis FBI agents impeded in terrorist investigations by Justice Department
    - The ’20th’ hijacker had been a suspect for years – but he was ignored by intelligence agencies
    - FAA security took no action against Moussaoui
    - Flight School Warned F.B.I. of Suspicions
    - Back in the Lion’s Mouth – The INS had two chances to nab Mohamed Atta. It failed both times.
    - FAA security took no action against Moussaoui
    - Moussaoui Probe Pushed U.S. Limits
    - Eagan flight trainer wouldn’t let unease about Moussaoui rest
    - Could It Have Been Stopped? (CBS report on Moussaoui issue)
    - CIA Learned of Moussaoui Under Alias
    - Agent Cited WTC Attack Ahead of 9/11


    Terrorist base in UK protected

    - Terror links in Europe: MI5 knew for years of London mosque’s role
    - Warnings on jail Muslims were ignored by ministers
    - London Mosque Leader: We Warned About Radicals
    - MI5 blunders over bomber


    Making it easy for the terrorists to attack

    - The Hijackers We Let Escape
    - Hijackers ‘trailed by CIA before attacks’
    - Report: CIA Knew Two Sept. 11 Hijackers Were in U.S.
    - September 11 hijacker questioned in January 2001
    - CIA complicit on September 11? (MICHAEL SPRINGMAN INTERVIEW)
    - FBI Let Suspected Terrorist Get Away
    - Anti-terror Prober: OKC Bombing Suspect Worked at 9-11 Airport
    - Terror Charity Got Fortune 500 Cash
    - Screening system ignored nationality
    - INS Action Ruled a Violation of Whistle-Blower Protections (Borders wide open)
    - Armed pilots banned 2 months before 9-11 – FAA rescinded rule allowing guns in cockpits just before terror attacks
    - Armed-pilot rule nixed after hijack briefing – Agency removed cockpit gun right despite July al-Qaida warning


    Questionable ties

    - A Qaeda Terrorist worked with FBI – Ex-Silicon Valley Resident Plotted Embassy Attacks
    - Taliban Defector was a CIA Informant for Years
    - Bush’s Favorite Terrorist Buddy
    - Bin Laden’s Brother in Law ‘An Irish Citizen’
    - Pakistan ISI spy service ‘aiding Bin Laden’ (Who runs the ISI? Answer – the CIA)
    - Was it an ‘intelligence failure’ to give red carpet treatment to the ‘money man’ behind the 9-11 terrorists?
    - Our ‘allies’ Saudi Arabia and Pakistan both paid £200 million+ in protection money to bin Laden
    - India helped FBI trace ISI-terrorist links (White House 9/11 attendee Mahmud Ahmad hotwired $100,000 to lead hijacker)
    - Is there more to Sen. Graham’s claim of a 9-11 cover-up than meets the eye?


    Protection of terrorists post-9/11

    - The ‘airlift of evil’ – Why did we let Pakistan pull ‘volunteers’ out of Kunduz?
    - THE GETAWAY – Questions surround a secret Pakistani airlift
    - US helped Taliban to safety, magazine claims
    - US ‘let Taleban men escape’
    - US rejected Iraq offer to turn over alleged World Trade Center bomber
    - Nuclear plot suspects freed after mix-up
    - Arab flight students streaming into U.S.
    - U.S. delayed blacklisting Pakistani al-Qaida group
    - Sept. 11 Charity Gave Money to Group Defending Terror Suspects
    - Bin Laden narrowly escaped US raid in Pak : Report (How convenient)
    - Blunders that let bin Laden slip away
    - Amnesty plan helps detainees, foes say (terrorists welcome here)
    - State Dept.: Terrorists Still Welcome Here
    - Report: CIA Missed Chance to Nab Terrorist
    - Sheltering A Puppet Master?
    - Al-Qaida suspect ‘hidden by UK agents’
    - Don’t arrest terrorists, INS tells airport agents
    - Easing sanctions on bin Laden associates urged
    - How bin Laden’s huge convoy gave American forces the slip – Afghans still marvel that 1,000 cars and lorries escaped


    CIA meeting with bin Laden

    - CIA Agent Met Bin Laden In July (LONDON EVENING STANDARD)
    - Radio reports new CIA-Bin Laden details (UPI/WASHINGTON TIMES)
    - Bin Laden Treated in US Hospital (UPI/WASHINGTON TIMES)
    - La CIA aurait recontre Ben Laden en juillet – Original Le Figaro article in French)
    - CIA Would Have Met bin Laden in July – Direct Translation From French Le Figaro Article
    - CIA agent alleged to have met Bin Laden in July (LONDON GUARDIAN)
    - Bin Laden ‘met CIA agent before terror attacks’ (ANANOVA)
    - Bin Laden Underwent Treatment in July at Dubai American Hospital: Reports (AFP)
    - CIA Says It Didn’t Meet With bin Laden (NEWSMAX/UPI)
    - Picture of original Le Figaro front page with Bin Laden CIA story


    Operation Bojinka / Planes as Bombs

    - FBI Charged With Ignoring Repeated Warnings Of Plane-As-Bomb Threat
    - Hijacker’s Plans Were Called ‘Project Bojinka’ – Were KNOWN TO U.S.
    - Western Intel Knew bin Laden’s Plan Since 1995 – German paper
    - Filipino police uncover 1995 leads to Sept. 11 plot
    - Operation Bojinka’s bombshell
    - U.S. warned in 1995 of plot to hijack planes, attack buildings
    - Bust and Boom (Operation Bojinka)
    - U.S. Knew of Suicide Hijack Threat in 1995
    - Abu’s long-standing ties to global terrorism bared
    - Probe: U.S. Knew of Jet Terror Plots


    Warnings Ignored

    - September 11 attacks called avoidable
    - America warned two years ago over “September 11″: report
    - NSA Missed A Big Warning
    - NSA didn’t share key pre-Sept. 11 information, sources say
    - New York Times pulled Al-Qaeda warning
    - U.S. had agents inside al-Qaeda
    - Wiretaps May Have Foretold Terror Attacks
    - Condoleezza Rice Warned Sept. 6 About Imminent Terror Attack (by CFR member Hart)
    - U.S. Ignored Warnings From French
    - FBI Was Warned of Sept. 11 Hijacker (Knew phone number, address, car of Hanjour)
    - Britain warned US to expect September 11 al-Qaeda hijackings
    - Bulletins warned airports in ’98
    - FAA Warned of bin Laden in 1998
    - Ashcroft drawn into row over September 11
    - Bush was given hijack warning by British intelligence
    - In Sept. 15 interview with NBC, Vice President Dick Cheney acknowledged the administration had received warnings
    - What Went Wrong: A chilling question – did Sept 11 have to happen?
    - Washington was ‘warned of hijack risk’
    - GENOA: US and Italian officials alerted to possibility of suicide hijackings – Bush warned directly
    - 1999 Report Warned of Suicide Hijack
    - For years, signs suggested ‘that something was up’
    - What did the FBI know?
    - Bush Administration Explanations for Pre-9-11 Warnings Fail the Smell Test
    - Bush Told of Possible Hijack Plot Before Sept. 11
    - Bush Was Told of Hijacking Dangers
    - Congress Eyes Reaction to Pre-Sept. 11 Warnings
    - Echelon gave authorities warning of attacks
    - Alex Jones interview with respected lawyer David Schippers – Government had prior knowledge
    - Middle East-OKC connection David Schippers tells Metcalf feds ‘ignored’ warnings of WTC attacks
    - US Ignored Pending Terror attack Warning Says Former FBI Official
    - Bin Laden Tipped His Hand
    - CIA Cited Risk Before Attack
    - Bush Did Not Heed Several Warnings of Attacks
    - Skolnick – US Had Prior Knowledge Of Emergency
    - Egypt Leader Says He Warned America
    - Egypt Warned U.S. of a Qaeda Plot, Mubarak Asserts
    - Who Did It? Warnings About bin Laden’s Group
    - Early Warnings Pre-Sept. 11 Cautions Went Unheeded
    - CIA ‘ignored warning’ on al Qaeda
    - What We Knew: Warning Given……Story Missed
    - Feds: Evidence suggests hijackers’ support in U.S.
    - CIA, FBI Disagree on Urgency of Warning
    - FBI Ignored Warnings of Fanatical Student Pilot
    - German police confirm Iranian deportee phoned warnings
    - U.S. Commission on National Security warned Bush
    - U.S. Identified Some Elements of Hijack Plot in Advance
    - Earlier Hijackings Offered Signals That Were Missed
    - The failure of government
    - Warning signs – Should officials have known the terror attacks were coming?
    - Transcript: Actor James Woods on O’Reilly (9/11 hijackers do a dry run – FBI warned – nothing happens)
    - The warnings about Sept. 11
    - FBI ‘ignored leads’
    - Jim Pavitt admits CIA foreknowledge of 9/11 – “We knew and we warned that al Qaeda was planning a major strike.”
    - We’ve Hit the Targets (Newsweek reports that top Pentagon officials were warned and cancelled flights on September 10th)
    - Many Say U.S. Planned for Terror but Failed to Take Action
    - Argentinians Say They Heard Terror Alert Weeks Before 9/11
    - Canada had hint of trouble pre-Sept. 11
    - Missed Chance – A wasted FBI asset?
    - German Intelligence Report warned Bush of exact date of terrorist attack
    - Moroccan secret agent ‘predicted New York attack’
    - Spy chiefs warned ministers of al-Qaeda attacks
    - Officials: Sept. 11 attacks were planned since 1998
    - US Heard ‘Tomorrow Is Zero Hour’ on Eve of Attacks
    - NSA Intercepts On Eve of 9/11 Sent a Warning
    - Panel: ’98 meeting foresaw 9/11 attack
    - Military analyst’s terror warning fell on deaf ears
    - ‘Ignorant and inept’ FBI failed to heed warning of terrorist attacks
    - Pilot Said to Boast of Murder Year Before Sept 11 – “In addition the words ‘World Trade Center’ were mentioned.”
    - Taleban ‘warned US of huge attack’
    - Did the U.S. Ignore Warning of 9-11 Attack? US State Department Official Told by Taliban Aide of Huge and Imminent Attack in July 2001
    - Prior Knowledge of Sept. 11 Not Just Urban Legend
    - U.S. Knew of Terror Cell Before 9/11: Probe of Men Began After Return From Afghanistan in 2001
    - US ‘failed to heed’ terror warnings
    - Congress Was Warned Two Months Before 9/11 Attacks
    - U.S. ignored terror signals, inquiry says
    - CIA Knew About 3 Hijackers in 2000 – 9/11 Inquiry
    - Alert on hijackers not ‘urgent’
    - Sept. 11 Hijacker Made Test Flights
    - In April 2000, a man entered the FBI field office in Newark and detailed how he was involved in a plot by Osama bin Laden to hijack a Boeing 747



    - Carl Cameron’s Special Report (FOXNews Video)
    - JINSA Behind Drive To Cover-Up Israeli Spy Scandal
    - Spies, or students?
    - Israeli ‘Art’ Deportees Were IDF Intel, Intercept, Explosives Experts
    - U.S. Army Officers Say: ‘Mossad May Blame Arabs’
    - ABC News: Were Israelis Detained on Sept. 11 Spies?
    - 9/11: What did Israel know? and when did they tell us?
    - BBC reports on Israeli spy ring with foreknowledge of 9/11
    - Odigo says workers were warned of attack
    - Instant Messages To Israel Warned Of WTC Attack
    - Israeli security issued urgent warning to CIA of large scale terror attacks
    - Massive Israeli Spy Ring Linked to Sept. 11
    - Mossad warned CIA of attacks – report
    - U.S. Breaks Up Major Israeli Spy Ring; Speculation: Mossad Was Aware of Sept. 11 Preparations
    - Did Mossad Know?

    Enron / Taliban in Texas

    - Taliban in Texas for talks on gas pipeline
    - ‘Either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs.’
    - Enron-FedGov Corruption: CIA Used in Corp Espionage, Rackets
    - The Enron Collapse And The Bush/Republican Connections
    - Finishing the Jigsaw Puzzle


    Highly Suspicious Activity

    - Pre-911 NORAD Exercise Focused on airborne terrorism/planes crashing into buildings
    - EXECUTIVE ORDER NUMBER 01-261 (Jeb Bush declares martial law 4 days before September 11th)
    - Five of the hijackers lived in a motel right outside the gates of the NSA
    - The FBI Informant Who Lived With the Hijackers
    - Sources: Hijackers’ ex-landlord was FBI informant
    - Pentagon officials cancelled September 11 flying plans day before (10th paragraph down)
    - Bin Laden’s Trail – Rushdie Air Ban (banned from flying from September 3rd)
    - Willie Brown got low-key warning about air travel
    - US Pulled Plug On 500 Arab/Muslim Websites Day Before Jetliner Attacks
    - FBI denies internet raid was anti-Arab
    - Ashcroft Flying High (Ashcroft told to avoid commercial airliners in Summer of 2001)
    - Trade Center Warning Baffles Police
    - Some Got Warning: Don’t Go Downtown on Sept. 11
    - Police: Student spoke of attacks before Sept. 11
    - No Prior Warning At WTC On 911? WTC Corporate Casualties Correction Reopens Question of Conspiracy or Complacency
    - Bush and Atta Visit Same Resort in the Hours Leading to 9-11


    Insider Trading Immediately Prior to 9-11

    - German Firm Probes Final World Trade Center Deals
    - Mystery of terror ‘insider dealers’
    - Suppressed Details of Criminal Insider Trading Leads Directly Into The CIA’s Highest Ranks
    - Lawyer: Accused Man Knew of Attacks
    - What did ‘Tony’ know on September 10?
    - Feds: Ex-Agent Had Key Data – Stock scam charges have eerie link
    - Still Silence From 9-11 Stock Speculation Probe
    - Stock trader targeted in Sept. 11 probe agrees to return to New York

    Comment by zach allen — August 15, 2007 @ 4:33 pm
  183. Hmmmm…. Doug…. I’ve been trying to post a response to your statement on media censorship.

    Your site appears to be censoring me.

    Worried I might expose something? ……

    Or are you having “technical difficulties” too….


    Comment by Lost_in_samoa — August 15, 2007 @ 4:33 pm
  184. all msm[main streem media]stories from infowars prior knowlege archive,have any of you acually looked through his different website archives,its unbelievably amazing.[breathtaking]

    Comment by zach allen — August 15, 2007 @ 4:35 pm
  185. Let’s try this again….

    Here are some links for you.
    ABC CAUGHT censoring Ron Paul support to favor Mitt Romney
    Ron Paul’s Online results not shown on TV
    Unbelieveable Censorship of Ron Paul at a Marlins Game
    Ron Paul Excluded in Iowa
    Brian Springer – Spin

    Here is a screen cap I took of Fox news reporting on the results of the Iowa Straw Poll. Hmmmmm… who’s not listed ?

    Here is a screen cap I took of the moderator at the Cal Thomas site admitting that he “tuned” the presidential poll to be inline with the MSM polls.

    I thought the purpose of a poll was to GAUGE the public sentiment, not MANIPULATE it.

    Here is a screen cap of the MSNBC Hardball video challenge. Ron Paul won this challenge hands down. Then the website was edited and the order of the videos changed, awarding Ron Paul’s votes to the Obama video.

    Only after a concerted effort by the online Ron Paul community was the web site fixed and the votes restored. No explanation was ever offered by MSNBC. Hmmmmm maybe they should look into the qualifications of their webmasters.
    MSNBC Media Blackout of Ron Paul
    Media Blackout on Ron Paul Debate Performance
    Here is a nice clearinghouse of Ron Paul censorship information.

    Well Doug …………

    Comment by Lost_in_samoa — August 15, 2007 @ 4:35 pm
  186. Zach,

    Wow, a 9/11 conspiracy composed entirely of inflammatory headlines with nary a link to be found so we can read the story and get a sense of context. You “truthers” sure know how to build a persuasive argument…assuming your target audience are idiots with a five-second attention span.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 4:36 pm
  187. Zach,

    Have you checked out this 9/11 link yet? It addresses several of your “theories”.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 4:37 pm
  188. go to,prisonplanet,look at the archives that link to the real msm articles then tell me all thats been debunked.if you dont what is the point of telling us to show you proof,if your not going to even look at the evidence of insider involvement

    Comment by zach allen — August 15, 2007 @ 4:45 pm
  189. UCrawford, Just being personable,and I feed on information,I’m not stickly about 9/11 I like your thoughts on the cabinet in office right now, and you must be a good person, you like Ron Paul. No worries, just trying to let a brother of the Ron Paul movement know he is welcome, no matter what your views are on 9/11.

    Comment by Curt — August 15, 2007 @ 4:48 pm
  190. ill check it out right now,ill be the first to say im not an expert on anything,all im saying is that im very skeptical of whats happening,thats all,i dont have to prove anything,its up to independent investigations of some sort,i dont think all those msm articles have been debunked,did you even go to the link and look at all tose amazing msm articles,i hope you denie we created osama.simple question,explain to me why thats no fact please.ill check your site right now i swear,but what do they say about us creating the problem in the first place like pretty much allways.

    Comment by zach allen — August 15, 2007 @ 4:49 pm
  191. Rather than carrying on with all this bickering amongst ourselves, we should nurture and embrace our difference of opinions. We have the opportunity to turn what many would consider Ron Paul’s campaigns biggest weakness into one of his strongest selling points; the fact that he can unify so many people of differing opinions from across the political spectrum in a time when the country probably has not been so divided since the civil war. Is freedom of speech and the tolerance of others viewpoints not one of the rights afforded us through the Constitution? If we cannot live according to those principles and set a positive example, then Dr. Paul’s campaign will be seen as riddled with empty rhetoric and is doomed to fail before it even had a chance to get off the ground.

    Comment by Tony Bolagna — August 15, 2007 @ 4:51 pm
  192. Zach,
    I’m sure you know this, but the F.B.I. monitors the stock exchange, and would have picked up on such percentages of puts. Then they would know who placed those puts, and would investigate properly. No investigation has been done. Why is that?

    Comment by Curt — August 15, 2007 @ 4:53 pm
  193. This site is “moderated”. Meaning that the MSM prostitutes here are not going to give the people a fair voice.

    UCrawford will chant the mantra of “” and never open his mind. It’s probably not in his best financial interest to do so. He is the beat cop standing by the murder scene saying “Move along folks, nothing to see here.”

    Doug Mataconis… hmmmpfff. I’m still waiting to debate monetary economics with you. You ran away from that can of wasps did’nt you Dougie boy?


    Let’s no longer waste time with this minor department of the “Ministry of Truth”.

    Everybody…. yes everybody…. Republicans, Democrats, Independants, Truthers, Conspiracy Theorists. Little ol’ ladies from Pasadena.

    We can all agree that the government we have is not representing us.

    Let’s forget this waste of digital storage space and go out into the real world and change it.




    Lost In Samoa

    Comment by Lost_in_samoa — August 15, 2007 @ 4:57 pm
  194. do you want me to go to every story and copy every fucking thing from mainstream media sites,ill do it,you people are really unbelievable.go to infowars prior knowlege section for your lazy ass selves,some of you call us nutjobs ,thats there only argument,why dont you tell them to prove that,instead of telling me to prove msm articles[mostly all of them]that are true,go look it up your self from infowars prior knowlege section.for heavens sake.ill copy some freakin msm articles right now.see if there true before you insult me brothers.

    Comment by zach allen — August 15, 2007 @ 4:57 pm
  195. Could we kill this discussion???? I don’t believe the anyone staged 9/11. You aren’t going to convince me otherwise. The fall of the WTC buildings seems plausible enough for me.

    Furthermore, Ron Paul has stated that he doesn’t believe anyone staged 9/11. I don’t want to talk about 9/11 Truth movement when we are discussing Dr. Paul’s position since he has repudiated those views. So please, please do not try to conflate support for Ron Paul and support for the 9/11 Truth movement.

    Comment by TanGeng — August 15, 2007 @ 5:02 pm
  196. Zach,

    I meant my comment to you as “you know…” not saying it didn’t happen. I’m saying the F.B.I. has not done it’s job. The put options will reveal someone with prior knowledge.

    Comment by Curt — August 15, 2007 @ 5:04 pm
  197. sorry ,i wish i could delete that last comment,sorry if my comments are annoying and immature,but will ucrawford tell me im wrong about the c.i.a. i.s.i. bin laden and 9/11 connections.

    Comment by zach allen — August 15, 2007 @ 5:17 pm
  198. its not the 911 truth movement anyway,its the arguement over the truth of whats going on,not nutjob conspiracys of whether space beams did it,c.i.a. and i.s.i created bin laden,no thats not important.

    Comment by zach allen — August 15, 2007 @ 5:20 pm
  199. Zach,
    Maybe you can ask him about the meeting about the NAU going on in Canada, with an eighteen miles armed guard perimeter. And ask if they know who is attending this meeting and why they are having it.

    Comment by Curt — August 15, 2007 @ 5:23 pm
  200. Unanswered Questions about the Put-options and 9/11
    By Ambrosia Pardue

    It was widely reported immediately after 9/11 that insider trading occurred in which trading skyrocketed on put-options that bet on a drop in UAL Corp. and AMR Corp. (parent company to American Airlines) stock in the days before the attacks. According to Bloomberg data, Morgan Stanley Dean Witter & Co. and Merrill Lynch & Co. also experienced pre-attack trading twelve, to more than twenty-five times the usual volume of put-options. Morgan Stanley put-options jumped to 2,157 contracts between September 6 and September 10—almost twenty-seven times a previous daily average of twenty-seven contracts. Merrill Lynch’s daily activities previous to September 11th were 252. 12,215 contracts were traded from September 5 to September 10th. Citigroup Inc. had a jump in trading of about 45 percent. One day before the American Airlines planes were hijacked and crashed, 1,535 contracts were traded on options that let investors profit from the American Airlines stock falls. 1 All companies were linked to the hijacked airplanes or to the World Trade Center. Morgan Stanley occupied twenty-two stories of the WTC and Merrill Lynch had offices nearby.2 Christian Berthelsen and Scott Winokur of The San Francisco Chronicle wrote on September 29, 2001 that as of that date investors had yet to collect more than $2.5 million in profits made in these put stock options of United Airlines, and “the uncollected money raises suspicions that the investors—whose identities and nationalities have not been made public—had advanced knowledge of the strikes.”3

    A put option is a contract that gives the holder the right to sell a specified number of shares in a particular stock, usually at a predetermined price, called the strike price, on or before the option’s expiration date—these are the stock index or dollar face value of bonds. The buyer (holder) pays the seller (writer) a premium and the buyer profits from the contract if the stock price drops. If the buyer decides to exercise the option, as opposed to selling it, the seller must buy the security. The seller profits when the underlying security’s price remains the same, rises or drops by less than the premium received.4 A short sale is where an investor borrows stock from a broker and sells it, hoping to buy it back at a lower price.5 A put option bets that a stock will fall, and a call option bets that stock will rise; there were far more put options than call options in the days proceeding September 11th.6 Cooperative Research states that “assuming 4,000 of the options were bought by people with advance knowledge of the imminent attacks, these ‘insiders’ would have profited by almost $5 million.”

    Of interesting note is that the firm that handled the purchase of many of the put options on United Airlines, the Bank of Alex Brown, was headed by ‘Buzzy’ Krongard until 1998. Krongard was the deputy director of the CIA during G.W.Bush’s first four years. Tom Flocco reported on July 16, 2002 that European reporters found most of the suspicious pre-September 11th trading “passed through Deutsche bank and Alex Brown investment division by means of a procedure called portage, which assures the anonymity of individuals making the transactions.”7

    Cooperative Research reported that the Securities and Exchange Commission published a list that included some thirty-eight companies whose stocks may have been traded prior to September 11th by people who had “advanced knowledge” of the attacks. From the Wilderness reported that the CIA, the Israeli Mossad, and many other intelligence agencies monitor stock trading in real time using highly advanced programs. Stock trading irregularities could be used to alert national intelligence services of possible terrorist attacks.

    CIA spokesman Tom Crispell denied that the CIA was monitoring U.S. equity markets trading activity prior to September 11th. Tom Flocco has found growing evidence that the FBI and other government intelligence agencies were more closely linked to the pre-September 11th insider trading.8 The San Diego Union-Tribune January 5, 2005 article stated that “a former FBI agent admitted that he gave online stock traders confidential details of federal investigations, including a probe of the Sept. 11 terror attacks.”9

    The New York Times, on September 28, 2001, reported that the “short positions and volume of put options rose sharply across the travel industry— which has been cited repeatedly in news reports as possible evidence of illegal trading.” The London Telegraph quoted Ernst Weltek, president of Bundesbank, on September 23, 2001 as saying that “there are ever clearer signs that there were activities on international financial markets that must have been carried out with the necessary expert knowledge.”10 Dylan Ratigan of Bloomberg Business News said that “this could very well be insider trading at the worst, more horrific, most evil use you’ve ever seen in your entire life. This would be one of the most extraordinary coincidences in the history of mankind if it was a coincidence.”11 quoted McLucas, former Securities and Exchange Commission Enforcement Director, as saying that “the options trading in particular suggests to me that somebody, somewhere, may have had an inkling that something bad was going to happen to certainly those airlines stocks.”12

    The 9/11 Commission report scantly covers the stock options issue. On page 499, footnote #130, the 9/11 Commission reports that, “some unusual trading did in fact occur, but such trade proved to have an innocuous explanation….A single U.S. based institutional investor with no conceivable ties to al Qaeda purchased 95% of the UAL puts on September 6 as part of a trading strategy that also included buying 115,000 shares of American on September 10.” This explanation only addresses the UAL and American put-options, ignores trades in other companies, and fails to identify the purchaser, thereby leaving even more unanswered questions.

    This issue cannot be discounted, overlooked, or debunked as a conspiracy theory. The questions remain: who put in the calls for these options, and are the calls tied to Krongard, the CIA, the alleged terrorists, or others?

    End Notes:
    13 312663.shtml

    Comment by zach allen — August 15, 2007 @ 5:30 pm
  201. Lost_in_Samoa,

    Keeping an “open mind” does not mean accepting unsubstantiated rumors and accusations as fact nor does it mean treating accusations based on unsubstantiated rumors and half-truths to be the intellectual equivalent of a legitimate position in a debate. None of the “truthers” has offered any position that has not been addressed and de-bunked by the site I’ve constantly linked to because none of them in fact has any evidence. The “truther” position is based on lies, innuendo, non-sequiturs, misrepresentations, half-truths and any number of logical fallacies. I therefore treat the “truther” position with all the contempt it deserves and I make no apologies for doing so.


    Yes, if you want to make a legitimate argument saying that the government perpetrated 9/11 you have to write a comprehensive, logical, and cohesive argument backed by more than circumstantial evidence or at the very least evidence that hasn’t been debunked by the site I linked to, plus you have to cite your sources so they can be fact-checked. That’s what separates a legitimate argument from meaningless drivel…proof that establishes guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. You want to prosecute the Bush administration…the burden of proof is always on the prosecution and not the defense. So far you haven’t given us any.

    TanGeng is right, however, this 9/11 “discussion” has gone on past the point of entertainment or usefulness so this will be my last post on it. If any of you decides to bring this up in future Ron Paul debates, however, I’m more than willing to go down this road again. Unless you’re able to effectively and logically undermine the science arguments in the Debunk911 site I linked to, however, I suggest you not waste your time. The burden of proof lays on the “truthers” after all (since you’re choosing to sit in the role of prosecutors) and currently you’ve got no proof that hasn’t been utterly discredited.


    Ron Paul’s okay by me and the only policy I seriously disagree with him on is immigration. I just find the entire “truther” position personally objectionable, because I believe that it is utterly false and willfully ignorant, same as I find the positions of people who deny the Holocaust or endorse genocide or racism. That said, you’ve been more personable and open-minded than many of the “truthers” I’ve encountered on the site, so even if we don’t agree, I honestly respect that. Take care, and let’s both hope that our candidate does well in the rest of the primary.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 5:30 pm
  202. CIA spokesman Tom Crispell denied that the CIA was monitoring U.S. equity markets trading activity prior to September 11th. Tom Flocco has found growing evidence that the FBI and other government intelligence agencies were more closely linked to the pre-September 11th insider trading.

    Comment by zach allen — August 15, 2007 @ 5:30 pm
  203. Unanswered Questions about the Put-options and 9/11
    By Ambrosia Pardue

    this site is where this info was taken,[im not sure its trustworthy]but its something interesting to investigate.

    Comment by zach allen — August 15, 2007 @ 5:34 pm
  204. Zach,

    Sorry, one last post because your question posted before my last remark. The CIA/ISID/Bin Laden connections stopped with the end of the Afghan/Soviet War. I suggest you check out the book “Ghost Wars” by Steve Coll for a comprehensive history of our involvement in that conflict. And no, I’m no fan of the ISID or Pakistan.

    Now I’m done.


    Comment by UCrawford — August 15, 2007 @ 5:34 pm
  205. def agree with you there my friend thank you for saying that,well said ucrawford.agree to disagree.

    Comment by zach allen — August 15, 2007 @ 5:39 pm
  206. I have to get, so I enjoy all of your comments, though it seems “antitruthers” rarely speak of facts and try to reroute you to avoid answering the questions us American citizens have who may not be “in the loop”. It is like Ed & Elaine Brown, All they want is someone to show them the LAW.(preiod) The truthers just want reliable information, and the “antitruthers” all act like Bill O’riely, calling names, and providing no evidence. I ask you what is easier calling people names, or truthfully answering hard questions. Do I know what happened on 9/11, I have to be like 90% of the world, and say no I do not, but I want enough information to make up my own mind, and not be told someone elses version.
    This may not have been the topic for this site, but I really appreciate all your honost opinions. Thank you and I hope to swap information again soon. God Speed to RON PAUL & his wife.

    Comment by Curt — August 15, 2007 @ 5:44 pm
  207. dont forget,that the north american union is a made up conspiracy theory to,and at one time we were believed to be nuts for believing in the nau.people like curt know were not nuts.i love most 911 truthers and ron paul supporters anyways,so lets keep donating to ron paul.hell be unstopable.

    Comment by zach allen — August 15, 2007 @ 5:44 pm
  208. were going to win and take this country back some how no matter if ron paul gets elected or not.but right now ill try to focus on ron paul getting attention in new york and try to donate.thats really important right now i believe to donate.peace and respect.

    Comment by zach allen — August 15, 2007 @ 5:50 pm
  209. I think that what the “truthers” have to say is *very important* but will serve to scare off people that haven’t researched these things. I’m a big Ron Paul fan, and what drives my passion is taking back our freedoms from the corporate elite and social engineers. I put a local site up for Ron Paul and I think I made a case for that *without* linking to Alex’s site.

    ( )

    I would encourage people “in the know” to do the same. Perhaps, if I’m in a personal conversation with a “truther”, it’s appropriate, but otherwise, I try to stick to Pauls platform.

    Comment by crxvfr — August 15, 2007 @ 5:52 pm
  210. hahahahahahahahahahaahahaha,yea im no fan of i.s.i. c.i.a. or there creation bin glad your not either ucrawford thanks for agreeing with me.

    Comment by zach allen — August 15, 2007 @ 5:58 pm
  211. Yeah…I think the Paul campaign needs some classy credible cats around him like the Romney fundriaser who just got indicted: “Alan B. Fabian, 43, of Cockeysville, is charged in a 23-count indictment with mail fraud, money laundering, bankruptcy fraud, perjury and obstruction of justice. The grand jury handed up the indictment Wednesday in U.S. District Court in Baltimore and it was unsealed Thursday”.

    This guy obviously is no “Truther”. It appears he seldom, if ever, told it at all. Even better, I bet he’s never stepped foot on the Alex Jones TV show. Supporters like this are hard to come by. No need to fit this cat for a tinfoil hat.

    Snooze….is this all you have to write about? Get a life!

    Comment by Skip — August 15, 2007 @ 6:10 pm
  212. UCrawford,

    Granted. So give us some substantive proof that you personally have reviewed the information that has been provided to you, and that you can scientifically refute what we are saying.

    In other words, ignoring our info and chanting “debunking911″ is not debating. Its preaching.

    You wanna preach…. ok…. How about

    “Debunking 9/11 debunking” There’s a good book for you. Read it and then we will discuss this mess.

    Of course you could’ve registered and won the $1,000,000 dollar reward that was offered for the individual or team that could scientifically prove the “official story”.

    That contest is now closed. Seems no one could demonstrate the science behind the “official story.” Oh well.

    Now myself personally, I believe that 9/11 was caused by massive ineptitude and apathy on the part of our elected leaders and paid civil servants.

    And I hate to see our government try to cover up their own stupidity by stonewalling/whitewashing the public.

    After all the government is supposed to work for us…. remember.

    9/11 is not nearly as interesting as the Federal Reserve. Wanna talk about that? Hmmmmmm?

    You are undoubtedly sincere in your beliefs. I can respect that. I am just suggesting that you may be operating on flawed info.

    Everyone should look at what they “KNOW” from time to time and re-evaluate it.

    I’ve gotta go meet with my local GOP and talk to them about the state of our republic.

    You have a nice day.



    Comment by Lost_in_samoa — August 15, 2007 @ 6:12 pm
  213. UCrawford,

    Granted. So give us some substantive proof that you personally have reviewed the information that has been provided to you, and that you can scientifically refute what we are saying.

    In other words, ignoring our info and chanting “debunking911″ is not debating. Its preaching.

    You wanna preach…. ok…. How about

    “Debunking 9/11 debunking” There’s a good book for you. Read it and then we will discuss this mess.

    Of course you could’ve registered and won the $1,000,000 dollar reward that was offered for the individual or team that could scientifically prove the “official story”.

    That contest is now closed. Seems no one could demonstrate the science behind the “official story.” Oh well.


    Now myself personally, I believe that 9/11 was caused by massive ineptitude and apathy on the part of our elected leaders and paid civil servants.

    And I hate to see our government try to cover up their own stupidity by stonewalling/whitewashing the public.

    After all the government is supposed to work for us…. remember.

    9/11 is not nearly as interesting as the Federal Reserve. Wanna talk about that? Hmmmmmm?

    You are undoubtedly sincere in your beliefs. I can respect that. I am just suggesting that you may be operating on flawed info.

    Everyone should look at what they “KNOW” from time to time and re-evaluate it.

    I’ve gotta go meet with my local GOP and talk to them about the state of our republic.

    You have a nice day.



    Comment by Lost_in_samoa — August 15, 2007 @ 6:13 pm
  214. nice site for ron paul,good job.

    Comment by zach allen — August 15, 2007 @ 6:16 pm
  215. i dont understand what skip said but again,we created osama bin laden,thats not important skip.

    Comment by zach allen — August 15, 2007 @ 6:26 pm
  216. yea i know,the c.i.a creating bin laden isnt important,i know your right,my life doesnt exist i need to[get a life].

    Comment by zach allen — August 15, 2007 @ 6:32 pm
  217. I support Ron Paul because of his principled approach to good, limited federal governament. As he progresses in the campaign, he will have to deal with the kooks who are gravitating toward him, or the center of the spectrum will suspect something is wrong with him.

    Comment by Dilroy — August 15, 2007 @ 6:40 pm
  218. I like Alex Jones and Ron Paul. I agree that issues other than 9/11-JFK should far outweigh “conspiracy theories.” I like him for the fiscal/non-interventionist/liberty type issues that have brought him fame. I like that he doesn’t laugh at JFK theories. That JFK was killed by a conspiracy is the mainstream historical perspective as far as I know. You can ask Dr. Wilkes of UGA law if you think otherwise or some history profs from Kansas, or Texas A&M ballistics experts.

    But, let’s not get bogged down in the fact that this country is run by a vast conspiracy. Let’s plan for running it. There is a lot of responsibility and a lot work to be done.

    Comment by Skylar Saveland — August 15, 2007 @ 6:56 pm
  219. UCrawford,

    I didn’t say that 9/11 was an inside job. I haven’t mentioned anything about remote control airplanes or towers 7 or NORAD… Any speculation on our part is useless without a new investigation which, as others have pointed out, is necessary. Pearl Harbor was investigated 9 times. 9/11 was investigated only once, and the investigation was a poor one. I am not screaming “INSIDE JOB”, but somebody did leave the front door wide open when it comes to 9/11, however, this is not even my point.

    We don’t need infighting, that is my point. 9/11 truthers, liberterians, conservatives, militia men, and everyone else that Ron Paul attracts support the same thing – Liberty – We all want less of Uncle Sam. We don’t appreciate the IRS or any other facets of Big Brother. Let’s just stay united on that. That means that we don’t need to be bashing each other over the head with 9/11 truth, debunking, debunking the debunking, and so forth. No matter how insane somebody may seem, someone who supports Ron Paul is a friend of mine.

    And BTW, Ron Paul would like to get rid of many of the intel groups that truthers despise.

    Comment by Jim — August 15, 2007 @ 6:58 pm
  220. Ron Paul Is Right – Sign and promote the Abolish the Federal Reserve Petition

    Today in August 2007, the world financial systems and investment markets, real estate and the availability of credit are all under direct assault due to past actions of the Federal Reserve in the United States.

    Read and sign the Ron Paul Is Right – Abolish the Federal Reserve Petition at

    Please link to the petition and forward this message to your friends and help the general public wake up during the current financial panic conditions to the problems we face from the Federal Reserve and Ron Paul’s solution.

    Comment by Ron Holland — August 15, 2007 @ 7:39 pm
  221. From California

    Go Ron Paul !!!

    When do I get to vote for him.

    Comment by TrafficBulldog — August 15, 2007 @ 9:32 pm
  222. I am a moderate Democrat that drove two hours to vote for Ron Paul at the Iowa Straw Poll. Romney did have many supporters in his camp, much more than in any other camp. But what would you expect when you are transporting them all with about 100 coach buses.

    I can reassure all of you that there was no conspiracy at the Iowa Straw Poll.

    Ron Paul did do a good job here though considering that many did not know who he was, and that he only spent a week here. I am betting that he put more effort into New Hampshire than in Iowa. New Hampshire has many many swing voters and the Republicans are more liberal there.

    Comment by jeremy — August 15, 2007 @ 9:57 pm
  223. This was from a Granny Warrior who drove to Iowa to support Ron Paul:

    While at the straw poll we saw hundreds of busses pull in and unload people for Romney, Tancredo, Hunter and Brownbeck. None for Ron Paul he did not pay to buss anyone in. These sheep were herded to the voting places by paid staffers who did not allow them to leave the line till they had voted for their candidates. It seems like some must have voted differently than for their candidate or Dr. Paul would not have gotten as many votes as he did.
    There were 26,000 tickets sold, but only 14,000 vote counted? What happened to the missing votes?

    At the beginning Ron got 1.300 votes and while all the other candidates counts kept going up his never changed – not once. Romney started off at 421 – the mixup with the voting machines – Romneys count climbed off the chart and others got a few extra votes also – but Ron’s never changed. That was the strange thing to me…

    From Tancredo’s supporters:

    Someone put out a message that the busses were cancelled, which was false, so the supporters stayed home or drove if they could. Romney bought 6,000 and had 4,516 votes. This is a completion rate of 75.2%. Tancredo bought 2,300 tickets and had 1,961votes for a 85.2% completition.

    It is reported that Huckabee’s campaign purchased 1,800 tickets, but then had 2,587 votes. That means that over 700 Huckabee supporters had to show up at Ames and purchase tickets at the Straw Poll. Huckabee had no buses bringing in voters as did Romney and Tancredo. So if he had a surge in the afternoon, where did it come from?

    3. Buses stopped arriving about 1pm. Huckabee had no buses to bring in voters at any date, much less a late date.

    4. At 2pm, ABC news reported from its exit polling data that Tancredo was in second place.

    5. After 3-4pm, a surge in the voting was reported. Where this surge was from is not determined. There seemed to be no surge in voters going to the various voting locations.

    6. The vote was then delayed from 7 pm to 8:40. Two machines reportedly malfunctioned and the votes were handcounted from those two machines. Voting occurs by the machine reading a paper ballot. The reason given for this was “humidity” but the machines were in air-condidtioned buildings.

    The movement called We The People also were concerned that all the candidates were going to suffer… Upon filing the suit, the Plaintiffs formally asked the Court for emergency injunctive relief, i.e., to order state election officials to modify the voting procedures for the Iowa Straw Poll to insure the validity of the voting process.

    Specifically, the desired order sought to eliminate the use of Diebold voting machines that had been -officially decertified by the state of California on August 3rd, to assure that the ballots were never out of public view, to force state election officials to publicly hand-count the ballots at each voting station and to announce the results and to conduct the tabulation of the vote station subtotals under full public observation.

    Romney’s campaign is a whos who of the Bush administration pros all behind him now. He even has the Blackwater (mercenaries for hire) hired, and is a fellow of the, who said at the Yeshiva U speech he wants to increase the military 100,000 and increase military spending to the highest levels – to about 5% of GDP.
    I don’t see any Changes coming from this candidate, since he parrots all of Bush’s views and has taken all his political talent including Rove’s assistant onboard.

    Comment by KS Huffman — August 15, 2007 @ 11:16 pm
  224. I should write an article of my own:
    “And how Doug Mataconis isn’t helping either”

    Comment by MDforLibertarian — August 15, 2007 @ 11:39 pm
  225. Does anybody know Dr. Paul’s position on Crop Circles?

    Comment by agentprovocateur.911 — August 15, 2007 @ 11:53 pm
  226. The ONLY Candidate who has a passionate grassroots movement of any substance is still Ron Paul.

    That’s what sets him apart from any other contender. The GOP needs someone who will pump some life back into it.

    Most Republicans I talk to sound completely discouraged, and overall deflated.

    I just tell them go with the man with the message. Ron Paul.

    With what little attention the established press has given him his popularity has spread like wildfire.

    He also stands for a change in policy, something I think is essential to make any Republican candidate viable for the White House in ’08 with 70+ percent of people wanting something different from what we’re presently doing in Iraq.

    The people want something different. I think we’ve all had enough of this. And Ron Paul is just a drastic enough departure from the current administration to win a popular vote for the GOP this coming election.


    Comment by Mr. Dylan — August 16, 2007 @ 2:34 am
  227. Here’s an IDEA:

    How about everyone stops pinning labels on Ron Paul, and actually LISTEN to what he’s saying???

    Then maybe you’ll wake up to why he is so popular to such a wide variety of people.

    Then maybe you’ll see why he has the ONLY well established base of grassroots supporters willing to donate their precious time to the cause. Being “Inspired Not Hired”.

    Wake up man. This isn’t about any isolated sect of people, this is about a message that transends all divisions, “the freedom message unites people”.



    Comment by Mr. Dylan — August 16, 2007 @ 2:37 am
  228. I don’t know why I read this mess. You would think a site advocating liberty would give the freedom, peace, and prosperity candidate a chance. But I guess ego’s can get in the way of message.

    If Congressman Paul only talks to mainstream press…he would hardly have any presstime. He is using his resources. Amazing…a former mayor and a former governor get more face-time than a sitting congressman of over 20 years. Amazing.

    I wonder what the people who call RP supporters “wacko” get out of it…what is their investment in bashing the Congressman?

    I agree with B.D. I say listen to what Dr. Paul says…not his supporters’ opinions, not sound bites. Read his speeches, listen to his interviews. He is very smart…and says only what he means–not what you THOUGHT you heard. Listen, research, and become a Ron Paul supporter!

    Donate, join and work with your local Ron Paul Meetup, register Republican, get active in the GOP, vote in your State Primary!!! We have to work together with people of all voting status, party affiliation, race, gender, creed, color, and social status to share the ideals of liberty and prosperity.

    Ron Paul 2008!!!

    I guess I sound like a wacko too…

    Comment by Sunshinysmile — August 16, 2007 @ 7:41 am
  229. Alex Jones taught me about the FAKE FEDERAL RESERVE BANK. A private bank that prints money for about 20 cents be it 1 USD or 100 UDS. If Ron Paul gets elected. The Fed & gang is going down. WAKE UP!

    Comment by Billy — August 16, 2007 @ 11:29 am
  230. Alex Jones is an important voice…and the REASON Ron Paul has gotten off to such a good start. Most of the people who come to Ron Paul’s campaign, including a little over HALF of our local meetup group, have done so because of Alex Jones.

    Ron Paul has already addressed this issue on Fox News and defended his position very tactfully, I might add.

    If you think Alex Jones is a “nutburger”, might it just be possible that you simply don’t know what your own candidate stands for? He has visited his show repeatedly and always spoken his mind openly on controversial issues the MSM won’t touch.

    There is good reason to question poll results and I see nothing wrong with pointing them out. Our Republic is being stolen and it might behoove people to recognize this and at least attempt vigilance in that respect, doncha think?

    Comment by Brad — August 16, 2007 @ 3:37 pm
  231. “I support Ron Paul because of his principled approach to good, limited federal governament. As he progresses in the campaign, he will have to deal with the kooks who are gravitating toward him, or the center of the spectrum will suspect something is wrong with him.”

    Some of you people truly don’t get it, do you? Those “kooks” ARE Ron Paul. They are attracted to his campaign because the man is a man of truth – truth in words and actions. He is a man who does not balk at difficult truths – (see his many house speeches such as that on “Dollar Hegemony” and the “Iraq War”). The so-called “kooks” aren’t gravitating to him for no reason. Birds of a feather, you might say… Perhaps, on some issues, it might help some of you to redefine what it means to be a “kook” before you try to pry a wedge between Ron Paul and those who support him most fervently.

    If you’re saying that people are “kooks” who are suspicious of their government and suspicious of the system because they fear it has been or might be overrun by bad guys, then I am PROUD to be a “kook”…AND a supporter of Ron Paul.

    I understand the workings of politics, and it’s not like I try to get support for Dr. Paul by talking about government coverups or assassinations. His message rises above and beyond any single issue and dives straight to the core of what it really means to be an American and to be FREE. It’s time people grow up and understand that a presidential candidate cannot control every single one of his supporters (unless, of course, he pays for all of them) and let’s just focus on what matters…getting this important man elected president so he can change some things that need to be changed before liberty can be restored.

    ..And that brings me to another point… Why does liberty NEED to be ‘restored’? Ask yourselves that before you go throwing the work “kook” around. I’ll tell you, if it wasn’t the result of a conspiracy of some kind, then that was either one very lethargic public, or one very busy individual.

    Comment by Brad — August 16, 2007 @ 3:58 pm
  232. Jones a nutjob? I wish. I used to think that too. The black background on the website, the sensationalist claims and tabloid headlines, the rants of a man being driven insane by the mindless, or mindnumbed robot citizens of the good old USA. I started digging around on his website. Guess what, he documents everything he says with only minor skewed circumstances and details in his reporting. It’s actually worse than he says most times but you all aren’t ready for it. Sane people can’t handle the truth. The truth about renditions and sex slave rings and eugenics on a global scale. It does not compute with the average human. Just like Ron’s sound money message does not compute with the average consumer of cheap Chinese goods.
    Get ready. it will!
    Get your personal house in order then get out there and work for Ron Paul like the planet depends on it because maybe it does.

    All that said I totally understand why the campaign must distance itself from the likes of Jones. It’s too wide a gap of realities to get elected.

    Comment by Frank — August 16, 2007 @ 9:54 pm
  233. When Ron Paul is elected he can gather an
    impartial group of scientists. Reopen the
    case and settle the matter. I think it is
    the least we can do for the victims and
    their families. Then we can put an end to
    this. Returning our Constitution and putting
    our government in it’s place is Ron Paul’s
    greatest desire. It is mine as well.
    Join us in taking back our Liberty.

    Comment by Sandra — August 17, 2007 @ 1:31 pm
  234. Thank you all for your support! Let’s win the nomination!

    Comment by Curt — August 17, 2007 @ 1:48 pm
  235. Just another repeat of the same old issue that the internet causes. No evidence is ever enough evidence. Only when the big corporate news gives permission for it to be evidence is it then evidence. Television is fantasy. I am reality. You are reality. We are reality. The TV is not reality. We are not waiting for the fantasy box to give us permission for anything anymore. The internet is the world of the eccentric genius. Out of pride-ego they go to great lengths to get to the root of everything. They stuffed the Iowa straw pol. Everyone knows it. What the ACTORS on tv read off their teleprompters means less than nothing. The internet will continue to casually expose their plots even before they happen. Their world is of the obedient, the ‘does not ask too many questions’ limited thinkers. They are totally outclassed.
    They don’t have anyone smart enough to run a scam the internet won’t expose.
    All they have is the same old boring cheap scam.. “Duh.. dat b a conspiracy story.. nuttin b true dat aint on Fox Newz.”
    Corporate propaganda is dead. They know it.
    All for One and One for Paul.
    (Read up on the Sept 11th world strike for peace)
    People wanted a chance, the student was ready and the teacher appearded. With a snap of his fingers Ron Paul can call up millions.
    Everyone who supports Ron Paul is my family. I love all you AMERICANS. You make me proud after so long of Bush making me ashamed.

    Comment by Rich — August 19, 2007 @ 10:35 am

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