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August 29, 2007

Where’s Ron?

by Chris

Not that I think hes’ got a shot; but he IS a declared candidate, he should be up there.

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30 Comments

  1. I think this illustrates why Ron Paul supporters who at some point identified as Republicans are unlikely to stay with the party if Paul doesn’t get the nomination. Polls like this are a message that libertarian-friendly viewpoints are no longer welcome in the GOP and rejecting Paul would be seen as the party structure officially reinforcing that message.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 29, 2007 @ 1:50 pm
  2. I agree with UCrawford. But it will be fun watching the GOP crash and burn as they desperately try to form some kind of philosophical foundation for their existence.

    Comment by somebody — August 29, 2007 @ 2:00 pm
  3. Umm, if it’s a biased poll, why are you spreading it?

    Comment by Jeff Molby — August 29, 2007 @ 2:00 pm
  4. Crawford,

    This is one poll by a right-wing blogger. I don’t know that it necessarily represents the views of all Republicans.

    Ron Paul isn’t going to win, but he could still do well enough to send a message that the libertarian wing of the party isn’t dead yet. That, at least, is my hope.

    But if the people who are supporting him pick up their marbles and go home when their candidate doesn’t win — which is something that happens in politics quite a lot — then the neocons and the Christianists will just become more powerful.

    Comment by Doug Mataconis — August 29, 2007 @ 2:18 pm
  5. I don’t actually find it fun that the GOP has turned into what it’s turned into…a pseudo-conservative group of socialists. I find it sad. I find it frustrating that the party I identified with throughout my life, the party that I worked for in several elections, the party of Reagan and Goldwater, has embraced everything I’ve ever hated about government and religion. Political parties change their stances all the time because they’re not the same as an ideology, but what’s happened with the GOP really bothers me because it’s just so extreme.

    And it really pisses me off that the LP is such a joke, so there’s nowhere else to act as a platform for libertarians (or even people who just don’t like government busybodies) in the elections. Honestly, I hate Bush and Cheney and the current GOP leadership probably as much as my grandparents hated FDR, Truman and JFK.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 29, 2007 @ 2:18 pm
  6. Doug,

    True, but they’ll eventually be doomed anyway. The economic models the neo-conservatives believe in are just as flawed as the ones the Dems believe in. They both believe in big government, they simply piss our money away on different issues. Both groups’ policies will eventually lead to economic disaster.

    More and more I’m starting to believe that the radical libertarians are right when they say it’ll take an actual revolution to change things.

    But I take your meaning about the right wing blogger’s unrepresentative poll. Frankly, I hope the Paul supporters who spam your site go take it out on that jackass for awhile. If the Paul people have to be negative, those are the guys they should be going after.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 29, 2007 @ 2:24 pm
  7. Maybe they remove Ron Paul because they didn’t like the May results?
    http://www.gopstrawpolls.com/2007/05/pollresults.php

    Comment by Rogel — August 29, 2007 @ 2:56 pm
  8. [...] UPDATE ** A related comment in an unrelated post at TheLibertyPapers They both believe in big government, they simply piss our money away on different issues. Both [...]

    Pingback by Democrat Has Some Great Advice For Republicans : Hear ItFrom.Us — August 29, 2007 @ 3:02 pm
  9. Rogel,

    In May, and then again in June, the straw poll recieved THOUSANDS of invalid submissions, (often hundreds from the same IP over and over again) for ROn Paul.

    It wouldn’t surprise me at all if the administrator of the site took Paul off just for that reason; not because they “didn’t like the result”.

    I mean do you seriously think there is a republican or conservative in this world that wouldn’t prefer Ron Paul over anyone the democrats have to offer?

    Comment by Chris — August 29, 2007 @ 3:26 pm
  10. Chris,
    I’m to afraid to take the bet :) But I do agree with you that it is highly possible that Ron Paul’s name was taken out because of the conduct of some supporters. It would make sense, however, if the site running the poll would announce the removal of Ron Paul’s name and the reason

    Comment by Rogel — August 29, 2007 @ 5:07 pm
  11. If I were opposed to Ron Paul the most effective thing I could do is fertilize the notion that RPs only got the support of a few spammers. Spamming polls is the best way to reinforce it.

    How can you tell the affiliation of the spammers? Must be some democrats cause the GOP doesn’t have a dirty tricks dept.

    Comment by Norm Nelson — August 29, 2007 @ 5:31 pm
  12. The online polls excluding Ron Paul limit voting by IP address. It’s rather difficult to skew the polls this way. But even if you give these polls the benefit of the doubt, why was Paul, a declared candidate, excluded from the written survey of the NRSC?

    See the article at http://www.micahnelson.com/?p=64

    I think the answer is that the pragmatic wing of the party is scared to let Ron Paul and his ideas out because they believe that it will alienate the swing voters.

    Comment by Chris Kachouroff — August 29, 2007 @ 6:19 pm
  13. Chris,

    There’s probably some truth in that…problem is that what the GOP has been pushing lately (increased government spending, government support for blatantly religious programs, unchecked executive power, blind and unquestioning obedience to an obviously incompetent president) is about as popular with swing voters as the proverbial turd in the punch bowl. And frankly their big-government platform is fundamentally no different from what the Democrats preach. If the “pragmatic” wing of the party can’t recognize that, then they’re obviously not all that pragmatic, or worth keeping around.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 29, 2007 @ 6:54 pm
  14. “then the neocons and the Christianists will just become more powerful”

    Yes, Doug, but more powerful in an increasingly shrinking and losing political party.

    Comment by Ken H — August 29, 2007 @ 7:37 pm
  15. From the poll’s website:

    Next, the update from GOP Straw Poll blogger Matt Margolis:

    Some of you may be wondering about the absence of Ron Paul from this months straw poll. Let me explain. After my decision to include Ron Paul in the previous poll, I monitored (to the best of my ability) the efforts by Paul’s online supporters. With the help of other bloggers, we discovered a sophisticated coordinated effort to spam the poll, obfuscate their actions, and even cheat the poll. Shortly after the launch of the previous poll, I received an email from Jesse Benton, the communications director for Ron Paul’s campaign. He was interested in getting information about what safeguards are used in the straw poll in order to protect it from spammers/cheaters. I made it clear that I was not about to share the details of what protections are place. His response was a bit less than amicable. I found it very curious that someone from Ron Paul’s campaign would have such an active interest in the GOP Straw Poll and specifically request such guarded details about it. This high suspect request, combined with the efforts of Paul’s online supporters to spam/cheat the poll. Ron Paul has been removed from this months poll in order to provide usable data on the acceptability/unacceptability of the candidates in the race. As you may have noticed in the previous poll, people who voted for Ron Paul as their number one choice also only put Ron Paul as the only acceptable candidate — a voting behavior not mimicked by supporters of other candidates. This made the data severely flawed and useless as a barometer — even for an unscientific one. So, that’s all there is to say about it now.

    Comment by Bob — August 29, 2007 @ 7:40 pm
  16. I voted in the poll. I rated all the candiates as unacceptable. I find it hard to believe that the Paul campaign is spamming polls but as you can see that’s what the poll site is claiming.

    Comment by Bob — August 29, 2007 @ 7:43 pm
  17. Bob, Norm, and CHris K; ABC.com reported the exact same thing, as has pretty much every other site running a ROn Paul poll.

    Comment by Chris — August 29, 2007 @ 8:47 pm
  18. Actually if you do the poll, none comes in a strong 4th at 12.6% currently. Most of these “none” votes are likely Ron Paul supporters. In addition, it is likely that some people would shift over to Ron Paul from another first choice if he were listed as a candidate. This is actually good news for Ron Paul, IMO.

    Comment by TerryP — August 29, 2007 @ 9:00 pm
  19. I always assumed that if the polls were being spammed it was by well meaning (but mistaken) Paul supporters. I never thought it came from the campaign. Any ideas on how we get to the bottom of this? I still can’t believe Ron Paul would approve of this.

    Comment by Bob — August 29, 2007 @ 9:09 pm
  20. CAVEAT: I’m not against Ron Paul nor do I support him.

    Matt Margolis sounds like one of these conspiracy theorists akin to a Holocaust Denier. I looked at the other news sites.

    FoxNews claimed it after their poll. However, it couldn’t happen since this poll was by text message. You’d have to have a lot of different phones so that’s false. But even if his supporters moved en masse, so are the other candidates as well.

    ABC claims the polls were skewed but in the same breath claims they were “flooded” with Ron Paul messages from his supporters begging ABC to put Paul’s name on the poll–he was initially absent from the poll. To boot, they deleted 90 posts by different people. Plus, one could not repeat the poll because the IP address is registered. I suppose one could change their IP address–such as dial up customers who would have to redial a connection every time. So there’s no way that one could know Ron Paul’s campaign was doing that.

    Also, why did the NRSC leave Ron Paul off the printed survey? Because a secret but highly coordinated effort of Paul people stole the GOP survey envelopes?

    For me, the proof of his presence is the $2.4 million dollars in Q2 from individual donors. He’s actually pretty close to Romney if you subtract Romney’s campaign debts.

    This is such bovine scatology.

    Comment by Chris Kachouroff — August 29, 2007 @ 9:36 pm
  21. I apologize but must add one more thing. Not one of the news organizations has posted ANY proof of anything. It’s all been speculation.

    I did a quick search and look at what one pollster has to say:

    “They aren’t “cheating,” as in voting multiple times, but they have sent out emails and posted the link to our poll at several spots on the web, urging people to go vote for Paul. The end result is the same—the poll results are skewed, and it’s not an accurate measure.

    Internet polls are not scientific anyway, but when the gaming is this obvious I’m not going to let it slide, or to let our poll be misused by supporters of a man who, in my opinion, is nuts.”

    By the way, this poll “gave up” and put Paul back on their site. See http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=25504_Ron_Paul_Supporters_Spamming_Our_Poll_Again&only

    The truth is, they think he’s nuts and there can’t possibly be that much support for Paul out there. Hmmmm….Dewey beats Truman syndrome? The answer to all of this is that the Internet community is far different and a minority of folks. Society isn’t representative of that community. However, it is a significant minority and I think Ron Paul has it locked up for now. He’ll need a lot more to become president.

    Comment by Chris Kachouroff — August 29, 2007 @ 9:45 pm
  22. The leaders among Republicans are no different than the leaders among Democrats – they want to have control. They may mean to be good controllers but they mean to control.

    Comment by Ken H — August 30, 2007 @ 8:11 am
  23. My thought here is that if there was any passion for ANY of the other candidates they might poll this thing also. Face it boysd and girls there is alot of PASSION for Ron Paul. Just a thought!

    Comment by KEITH CRAWFORD — August 30, 2007 @ 9:58 am
  24. Dad? What did Mom tell you about expressing your passion for other men? Are you off your meds again.

    Comment by UCrawford — August 30, 2007 @ 10:12 am
  25. You know, sometimes the Ron Paul supporters remind me of the “Mr. Belvedere Fan Club”.

    http://snltranscripts.jt.org/91/91sbelvedere.phtml

    Comment by UCrawford — August 30, 2007 @ 10:17 am
  26. Conspiracy theory in the hands of some of the Paul supporters is categorical evidence that they are loonies, and so is he, by their choice of association. Conspiracy theory by Paul opposition that any favorable poll results must be rigged is smart thinking, and just plain obvious.

    Anyone else see any contradictions there?

    Claims without evidence won’t sway the thoughtful. But they may well convince audience members who don’t (or can’t) pay attention. This works with UFO’s, 9/11 conspiracies, and Ron Paul polls alike.

    Comment by Akston — September 1, 2007 @ 12:40 am
  27. Maybe they don’t include Ron Paul, because so many Ron Paul supporters are all over the internet saying that they will not support the eventual GOP nominee if it is not Ron Paul.

    That’s pretty damned insulting to Republicans, if you ask me. It’s not a very team-oriented viewpoint. If I was a GOP leader I’d be real wary of inviting Paul people to participate in GOP events, polls and such.

    It’d be better if Ron Paul supporters said, we like Ron, but if he loses the nomination to Thompson or Giuliani, we’ll still back the GOP nominee against Hillary Clinton.

    Comment by Robert Standard — September 2, 2007 @ 12:35 pm
  28. I think that’s a good point. Paul supporters come from more than just the Republican ranks. The segments that are normally Democratic would certainly not just settle for a team choice from a team they don’t generally agree with.

    I would simply argue that it’s this broad-based appeal that may be the Republican Party’s only hope at winning in ’08. The Republican Party’s reputation is in the toilet. Why? I’d submit that it’s a result of the Republican Party’s abuse of power, spending, and continuing support of the war in Iraq. Who is the only Republican candidate to advocate a smaller federal government, and immediate withdrawal from Iraq?

    Should conservative and libertarian people rally to the platform of the Republican Party, whether they agree with it or not? Or should the Republican Party reflect the interests of its members?

    Does any other Republican candidate have anywhere near the broad-based support that Ron Paul could deliver if his own party also backed him? What was the effect of Reagan Democrats in 1980 and 1984?

    Comment by Akston — September 2, 2007 @ 2:00 pm
  29. [...] to The Liberty Papers for pointing out this [...]

    Pingback by Straw polls and trickery « The Incontiguous Brick — September 4, 2007 @ 2:06 pm
  30. If the GOP is so worried about this problem of cheating then why aren’t they crusading to abolish electronic voting machines?

    Comment by Exotic Electron — September 4, 2007 @ 2:42 pm

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