Chepe, should I also prove to you that water is wet?

I think I speak for everyone here when I stipulate to the wetness of liquid water.

As for whether or not our foreign policy has and continues to inflame hatred amongst Muslims, more than a few of us disagree. If you wish to convince us otherwise, bring some supporting evidence. If you don’t, that’s cool too. Your opinion is duly noted.

This is truly insane. Let’s examine its consequences, shall we? First off, they cut off our oil and our economy goes into a nose dive. Then the rest of the world imposes harsh economic sanctions upon us for using nuclear weapons in communal reprisal (the last government that implemented community reprisal was Nazi Germany), sending our economy even further into collapse. We can’t deliver food, goods, or basic services. Millions of Americans die. The government collapses and anarchy ensues. Eventually a combined force of UN troops moves in to restore order. We end up under foreign rule.

Smooth move, Chris.

2. Give them such a crushing and humiliating military defeat that anytime anyone even suggests militancy they are stoned to death by their own people. Repeat the process until it stops being necessary.

I see. Like the crushing military defeat we’re inflicting upon them in Iraq? No, you want to pull out all the stops and start shooting anything that moves. Which would of course trigger a firestorm of reaction throughout the world. Not quite as bad as the above, but enough to insure that we wouldn’t have the military power to carry out your bloodthirsty scheme.

Smooth move, Chris.

If we don’t see massive genocidal anti-islamist movements rise in Europe over the next ten years I’d be amazed.

Prepare to be amazed. The Europeans are civilized people.

if you think 4 has even a remote possibility of working, you are willfully blind to the nature of islamism

So, Chris, you can’t respond with facts, evidence, and reasoning, so you sling mud about somebody you know nothing about.

Did you even bother to read the links I posted?

Chepe, if you think 4 has even a remote possibility of working, you are willfully blind to the nature of islamism.

If you continue to make this assertion without supporting it, we will have no choice but to conclude that you can’t.

1. Kill em all. Ever tried to kill a billion people? It’s really tough. Adolf Hitler only managed six million. Do you think we can do better? Do you want to?

2. Build a fence around most of the globe? I don’t think so.

3. Remove the financial backing of the nations controlling most of the world’s oil? That’ll be quite a trick.

4. Well, yes, this can work if we play it well.

So it looks as if the basic strategy has to be something along the lines of peaceful coexistence.

1. Kill 100 of them for every one of us who dies. Kill 1000 of their children for every one of our children who dies. Destroy 1 of their cities for every bomb that a muslim explodes in the west. Destroy ALL of their cities if a nuclear, biological, or chemical attack is ever conducted. Hold all responsible for the actions of the terrorist groups until such time as they are all rooted out and killed, and an internal reformation occurs.

Personally, I’d really like to avoid that one.

2. Give them such a crushing and humiliating military defeat that anytime anyone even suggests militancy they are stoned to death by their own people. Repeat the process until it stops being necessary.

This one could work, if we had the stones to go through with it; but it would be ugly, bloody, nasty, and expensive.

I’m reasonably certain that Americans as a whole will ignore militant islam as much as possible for as long as possible. Europe isn’t so lucky. If we don’t see massive genocidal anti-islamist movements rise in Europe over the next ten years I’d be amazed.

1. Kill em all. (And everyone that’s related to them)

2. Contain them all (oh boy, another fence)

3. Remove their teeth (remove their financial backing)

4. Stop being their recruitment tool and wait for attrition to fade them away.

There is absoluty no chance that we can cause a reformation by waging war on them. That will only galvanize them.

I’m guesstimating from the tables here — you should look at them yourself — but very roughly, it looks as if about 25% of the respondents answered “Often” or “sometimes”; perhaps 20% answered “seldom”, and maybe 50% answered “never”. Note that this is in defense of Islam, not to spread it. Clearly, the numbers in favor of using violence against civilians to expand Islam are going to be substantially smaller than these.

I couldn’t get the link html working, so here is the hard link
http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=253

So, at a minimum there are 60 million muslims who would like to kill or enslave all those in the west; motivated solely by their religion.

(emphasis mine)
You jumped there. I won’t challenge your numbers, but you said nothing which supports your statement in regards to their motivation.

The most conservative estimates are that between 10% and 25% of all muslims (this is from Paralells, the strategic journal of the U.S. military by the way) support active, violent jihad and terrorism against the west. 40% express some level of support for active jihad and terrorism. Only about 15% (and remember these are very rough numbers, and not very solid) actively condemn jihad and terrorism.

So, at a minimum there are 60 million muslims who would like to kill or enslave all those in the west; motivated solely by their religion. The number may be as high as 300 million.

They believe that god commands them to kill or enslave us. They spend hundreds of millions of dollars; perhaps billions of dollars; annually supporting those who do take direct action against the west; and they most often support their governments in both direct and indirect action against the wast.

As I said, it may make you feel better to believe this is not so; but how you feel isn’t very important to reality.

These claims of yours about Islam being a bloodthirsty religion replete with millions of homicidal maniacs are utter nonsense.

The average terrorist is not angry at you or I–the normal American who does not have any impact on their lives, whatsoever. That’s the impression I get and I don’t care to wave the flag and see blood spilled over something that a majority of us are not party to. Does that make sense? And I doubt a majority of Islamic folk care to hate us either. It’s not human nature.

This isn’t about corporations or actions or policy; Islam views American and western culture as a whole to be the work of Satan, and it cannot be allowed to survive. (see todays comments about madonna and Brittney Spears for example)

Islam remember is not just a religion, it is also a system of laws, and a system of politics. The islamist state MUST by the dictates of god (at least to their believe) make war upon the infidel.

Now, there are a large fraction of muslims who would prefer to ignore that part of their religion, but there are literally hundreds of millions who do not. So long as those people believe as they do, there will never be peace and safety from the islamists.

The only thing that will work here is a massive military defeat of the forces of Islamism, combined with a massive social change on the part of Islam; similar in nature but far greater in extent to the Christian reformation of the 15th through 17th century.

I could go on, but I’m getting to a full length post at this point.

As long as your not sitting next to a wide stance kind of guy, you should be okay :)

Seriously though, you make some excellent points that I fully agree with, but to nullify those as you’ve correctly outlined as being the enemy, what choices will people like us have to make to survive or simply coexist with them? Do those choices need to be harsh ones or is it a matter of taking the time to show a new generation that we are not to be feared? And in the process are we going to promote American ideals or will it merely be lip service to gain access for our (I hate using the word our since I see very little patriotism on behalf of many of these corporations our men and women in uniform are dying and being injured for) native corporations?

The average terrorist is not angry at you or I–the normal American who does not have any impact on their lives, whatsoever. That’s the impression I get and I don’t care to wave the flag and see blood spilled over something that a majority of us are not party to. Does that make sense? And I doubt a majority of Islamic folk care to hate us either. It’s not human nature.