<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Happy Constitution Day</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/</link>
	<description>Life. Liberty. Property. Defending individual freedom and liberty, one post at a time.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 17 May 2013 18:49:12 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: tkc</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38507</link>
		<dc:creator>tkc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 19:58:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38507</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Also, just because there is no government authority doesn&#039;t mean Joe Bully can ignore other people&#039;s inalienable rights.  Life is one them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, just because there is no government authority doesn&#8217;t mean Joe Bully can ignore other people&#8217;s inalienable rights.  Life is one them.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: tkc</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38502</link>
		<dc:creator>tkc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 19:52:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38502</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If Joe Bully murders me then what right does anyone have to conscript you, or anyone else, to do something about it?  None. 

You may volunteer to do something about it, and in the case of murderers, complete strangers to me may take up the cause, most likely for the purpose of their own safety.

Have you ever read &#039;The Moon is a Harsh Mistress&#039;?  If so then the trial in that work is a good example of justice without government.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Joe Bully murders me then what right does anyone have to conscript you, or anyone else, to do something about it?  None. </p>
<p>You may volunteer to do something about it, and in the case of murderers, complete strangers to me may take up the cause, most likely for the purpose of their own safety.</p>
<p>Have you ever read &#8216;The Moon is a Harsh Mistress&#8217;?  If so then the trial in that work is a good example of justice without government.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chepe Noyon</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38420</link>
		<dc:creator>Chepe Noyon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 01:39:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38420</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK, you&#039;re promulgating a notion of ethics that is unrealistic. Let me present a ridiculously simple example of how unworkable your thinking is: 

Joe Bully murders you. He is arrested, indicted, and convicted. But then he declares, &quot;I never gave my consent to the laws against murder. You cannot hold me.&quot; Using your logic, everybody agrees and Joe Bully walks free and murders more people.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, you&#8217;re promulgating a notion of ethics that is unrealistic. Let me present a ridiculously simple example of how unworkable your thinking is: </p>
<p>Joe Bully murders you. He is arrested, indicted, and convicted. But then he declares, &#8220;I never gave my consent to the laws against murder. You cannot hold me.&#8221; Using your logic, everybody agrees and Joe Bully walks free and murders more people.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: tkc</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38419</link>
		<dc:creator>tkc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 01:27:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38419</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is not morality that I am speaking of, it is ethics.  That I cannot stop the 300 million from killing the 1 is true, regardless, it still makes the 300 million unethical.  Just as assuming consent for a person who actually withholds it is unethical, 300 million people deciding otherwise does not confer legitimacy to an unethical act.

Anarchy works better than you give credit.  The invisible hand of the free market is a good example of anarchy working just fine.  Take, for example, what everyone in the country had for breakfast this morning.  300 million people decided what they wanted and just about all of them got it.  There is no majority going around saying Tuesday is bagel day and you must comply.  Even if there was such a majority, if you wanted a doughnut this morning then chances are you had no problem finding one.  People voluntarily consent to all manner of things all the time and it works smoothly.  So why disregard this in the name of something that is unethical at its roots?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is not morality that I am speaking of, it is ethics.  That I cannot stop the 300 million from killing the 1 is true, regardless, it still makes the 300 million unethical.  Just as assuming consent for a person who actually withholds it is unethical, 300 million people deciding otherwise does not confer legitimacy to an unethical act.</p>
<p>Anarchy works better than you give credit.  The invisible hand of the free market is a good example of anarchy working just fine.  Take, for example, what everyone in the country had for breakfast this morning.  300 million people decided what they wanted and just about all of them got it.  There is no majority going around saying Tuesday is bagel day and you must comply.  Even if there was such a majority, if you wanted a doughnut this morning then chances are you had no problem finding one.  People voluntarily consent to all manner of things all the time and it works smoothly.  So why disregard this in the name of something that is unethical at its roots?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chepe Noyon</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38413</link>
		<dc:creator>Chepe Noyon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2007 22:27:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38413</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think that you are promulgating a notion of morality that is unrealistic. If 300 million people want to kill somebody in their country, there is nothing in creation that can prevent them from doing so. It would be wonderful if everybody agreed on things, if every politician were elected with a 100% vote, if every bill in Congress passed with unanimous acclamation, if people never had disagreements over contracts and people never committed crimes. But these things do happen and law is the only way to sort out the conflicts that divide us. What you promulgate is anarchy, and anarchy doesn&#039;t work.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that you are promulgating a notion of morality that is unrealistic. If 300 million people want to kill somebody in their country, there is nothing in creation that can prevent them from doing so. It would be wonderful if everybody agreed on things, if every politician were elected with a 100% vote, if every bill in Congress passed with unanimous acclamation, if people never had disagreements over contracts and people never committed crimes. But these things do happen and law is the only way to sort out the conflicts that divide us. What you promulgate is anarchy, and anarchy doesn&#8217;t work.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: tkc</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38409</link>
		<dc:creator>tkc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2007 20:45:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38409</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Chepe, that legitimacy is not impossible to obtain.  People do it all the time in their daily business.  There are people you will work with.  There are people you won&#039;t work with.  You give your consent to the former and not to the latter.  You are free to choose.  You do it all the time and it is such second nature that I&#039;ll wager an ice cold lager that it doesn&#039;t cross your mind when you do it.  Consent is simple to obtain.

The majority of the people can never lend legitimacy so long as one person dissents.  If the majority were to dicide, 300 million to 1 that you must forfeit your life for &#039;the greater good&#039; then even such an overwhelming majority is acting unethically.

Mises has recently reprinted a piece on this subject.
http://www.mises.org/story/2624]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chepe, that legitimacy is not impossible to obtain.  People do it all the time in their daily business.  There are people you will work with.  There are people you won&#8217;t work with.  You give your consent to the former and not to the latter.  You are free to choose.  You do it all the time and it is such second nature that I&#8217;ll wager an ice cold lager that it doesn&#8217;t cross your mind when you do it.  Consent is simple to obtain.</p>
<p>The majority of the people can never lend legitimacy so long as one person dissents.  If the majority were to dicide, 300 million to 1 that you must forfeit your life for &#8216;the greater good&#8217; then even such an overwhelming majority is acting unethically.</p>
<p>Mises has recently reprinted a piece on this subject.<br />
<a href="http://www.mises.org/story/2624" rel="nofollow">http://www.mises.org/story/2624</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chepe Noyon</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38391</link>
		<dc:creator>Chepe Noyon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2007 01:31:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38391</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No, I don&#039;t accept that reasoning; your notion of legitimacy is impossible to obtain. I think that a government is legitimate if it enjoys the loyalty of the great majority of the people.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I don&#8217;t accept that reasoning; your notion of legitimacy is impossible to obtain. I think that a government is legitimate if it enjoys the loyalty of the great majority of the people.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: tkc</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38385</link>
		<dc:creator>tkc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2007 21:24:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38385</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Chepe, do you agree or disagree that a pre-requisite of legitimate government is the consent of the governed? If there is no individual consent then the government is not legitimate.  There is only group consent if everyone in the group gives it or consents to go along with what everyone else decides.  The pre-amble of the Constitution does neither.  It either assumes consent or implies it, both of which are illigitimate.  I cannot give your consent without your approval.  If I cannot do such a thing individually then how can I manufacture such a power collectively?    

When it comes to government I cannot think of an institution that has deliberately killed more people for the shallowest of reasons.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chepe, do you agree or disagree that a pre-requisite of legitimate government is the consent of the governed? If there is no individual consent then the government is not legitimate.  There is only group consent if everyone in the group gives it or consents to go along with what everyone else decides.  The pre-amble of the Constitution does neither.  It either assumes consent or implies it, both of which are illigitimate.  I cannot give your consent without your approval.  If I cannot do such a thing individually then how can I manufacture such a power collectively?    </p>
<p>When it comes to government I cannot think of an institution that has deliberately killed more people for the shallowest of reasons.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chepe Noyon</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38327</link>
		<dc:creator>Chepe Noyon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Sep 2007 00:34:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38327</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No, there is no individual consent. There is group consent. Is this right? I won&#039;t try to determine right and wrong. Again, I&#039;ll simply say that, if we refuse to grant sovereignty to governments, then almost everybody dies.

You seem to think that without government, things would be just hunky-dory. The historical record is quite clear on this point. There is no case in history in which government was entirely eliminated; in every case where government disappeared, strong men appeared and used violence to establish their own government. And in those cases where the overall rule of government declined, so did the population.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, there is no individual consent. There is group consent. Is this right? I won&#8217;t try to determine right and wrong. Again, I&#8217;ll simply say that, if we refuse to grant sovereignty to governments, then almost everybody dies.</p>
<p>You seem to think that without government, things would be just hunky-dory. The historical record is quite clear on this point. There is no case in history in which government was entirely eliminated; in every case where government disappeared, strong men appeared and used violence to establish their own government. And in those cases where the overall rule of government declined, so did the population.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: tkc</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38326</link>
		<dc:creator>tkc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 23:33:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38326</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I will simply observe that, if governments weren’t granted sovereignty over their territory, the population of the human race would be a few tens of millions and global GDP per capita would be on the order of a hundred bucks per year.&quot;  Not to get off on a tangent but I disagree with this notion.  If I could wave a magic wand and make government disappear would all individual motivation cease to exist?  I seriously doubt it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I will simply observe that, if governments weren’t granted sovereignty over their territory, the population of the human race would be a few tens of millions and global GDP per capita would be on the order of a hundred bucks per year.&#8221;  Not to get off on a tangent but I disagree with this notion.  If I could wave a magic wand and make government disappear would all individual motivation cease to exist?  I seriously doubt it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: tkc</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38325</link>
		<dc:creator>tkc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 23:31:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38325</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I understand that government can have sovereignty over a territory but where does it get it&#039;s sovereignty over an individual?  It must come from consent.  Consent is a pre-requisite for a legitimate government.  

You&#039;ll never get me to agree that consent can be assumed by government (that would be too much like a divine right) or that it can be implied (which is unethical).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand that government can have sovereignty over a territory but where does it get it&#8217;s sovereignty over an individual?  It must come from consent.  Consent is a pre-requisite for a legitimate government.  </p>
<p>You&#8217;ll never get me to agree that consent can be assumed by government (that would be too much like a divine right) or that it can be implied (which is unethical).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chepe Noyon</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38322</link>
		<dc:creator>Chepe Noyon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 21:10:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38322</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK, perhaps we are at last getting to the nub of the disagreement. The government of a society exercises sovereignty over its territory. That sovereignty springs from the people as a whole, and it applies to each person inside that territory. I will not argue with you whether it&#039;s right or wrong; I will simply observe that, if governments weren&#039;t granted sovereignty over their territory, the population of the human race would be a few tens of millions and global GDP per capita would be on the order of a hundred bucks per year.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, perhaps we are at last getting to the nub of the disagreement. The government of a society exercises sovereignty over its territory. That sovereignty springs from the people as a whole, and it applies to each person inside that territory. I will not argue with you whether it&#8217;s right or wrong; I will simply observe that, if governments weren&#8217;t granted sovereignty over their territory, the population of the human race would be a few tens of millions and global GDP per capita would be on the order of a hundred bucks per year.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: tkc</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38320</link>
		<dc:creator>tkc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 21:03:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38320</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We have been rambling a bit, so, how does the Constitution rightly apply to me without my explicit consent?
Love it or leave is a bully&#039;s response.  For me to attempt to amend or modify an agreement to which I am not a party to is unethical.  If you were to move in next door to me would I be able to imply a right that you need to wash my car simply because of your residency?  That would be nuts.  So why can government do this?  Where do they get this power?

Stefan Molyneux explains better than I do:
&quot;Furthermore, it is hard to imagine how just living in a country creates any form of implicit contract with the government. Implicit contracts are by their very nature unjust –and how do we know this? Because private citizens are not allowed to create and enforce implicit contracts. I can&#039;t say to my neighbor that his decision to live in his house automatically requires him to mow my lawn. I can&#039;t buy a car, offer to share it with my neighbor and then force him to pay for half of it. Anything which is unjust for private individuals is also unjust for those in the government – since the government is merely composed of individuals, and thus must be subject to the same moral laws as everybody else. Any rights or abilities claimed by those in power which directly oppose the rights or abilities of everybody else are automatically unjust and immoral.&quot;
http://www.lewrockwell.com/molyneux/molyneux17.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We have been rambling a bit, so, how does the Constitution rightly apply to me without my explicit consent?<br />
Love it or leave is a bully&#8217;s response.  For me to attempt to amend or modify an agreement to which I am not a party to is unethical.  If you were to move in next door to me would I be able to imply a right that you need to wash my car simply because of your residency?  That would be nuts.  So why can government do this?  Where do they get this power?</p>
<p>Stefan Molyneux explains better than I do:<br />
&#8220;Furthermore, it is hard to imagine how just living in a country creates any form of implicit contract with the government. Implicit contracts are by their very nature unjust –and how do we know this? Because private citizens are not allowed to create and enforce implicit contracts. I can&#8217;t say to my neighbor that his decision to live in his house automatically requires him to mow my lawn. I can&#8217;t buy a car, offer to share it with my neighbor and then force him to pay for half of it. Anything which is unjust for private individuals is also unjust for those in the government – since the government is merely composed of individuals, and thus must be subject to the same moral laws as everybody else. Any rights or abilities claimed by those in power which directly oppose the rights or abilities of everybody else are automatically unjust and immoral.&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://www.lewrockwell.com/molyneux/molyneux17.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.lewrockwell.com/molyneux/molyneux17.html</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chepe Noyon</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38280</link>
		<dc:creator>Chepe Noyon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 21:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38280</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[tkc, the main point I was attending to was your plaint about being obligated to acquiesce to a Constitution that you never gave consent to. I consider that complaint to be without merit. You raise many other points, which may be worthy of discussion, but the key point I&#039;d like to resolve, and that I think is easily resolved, is the notion that the Constitution rightly applies to you despite the absence of your explicit consent.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>tkc, the main point I was attending to was your plaint about being obligated to acquiesce to a Constitution that you never gave consent to. I consider that complaint to be without merit. You raise many other points, which may be worthy of discussion, but the key point I&#8217;d like to resolve, and that I think is easily resolved, is the notion that the Constitution rightly applies to you despite the absence of your explicit consent.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: tkc</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38277</link>
		<dc:creator>tkc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 20:38:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/09/17/happy-constitution-day/#comment-38277</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Chepe, I think you have it backwards.  Inalienable rights, such as those of life and liberty, exist whether there is a Constitution or not.  The idea behind legitimate government is to protect those rights and not to become the vehicle with which to crush said rights.  

My expectation of the Constitution is not to grant me anything (especially such things I do not consent to).  The idea behind a legitimate limited government is to protect people from the predations of unethical men and not to become the vehicle for such predations. If I must amend, violate, undergo legal penalties, or depart from a territory to secure my life and liberty based on implied obligations under the Constitution then the claim to &#039;secure the blessings of liberty&#039; is an outright lie.  The Constitution, which should protect my inalienable rights, becomes the hammer with which to destroy them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chepe, I think you have it backwards.  Inalienable rights, such as those of life and liberty, exist whether there is a Constitution or not.  The idea behind legitimate government is to protect those rights and not to become the vehicle with which to crush said rights.  </p>
<p>My expectation of the Constitution is not to grant me anything (especially such things I do not consent to).  The idea behind a legitimate limited government is to protect people from the predations of unethical men and not to become the vehicle for such predations. If I must amend, violate, undergo legal penalties, or depart from a territory to secure my life and liberty based on implied obligations under the Constitution then the claim to &#8216;secure the blessings of liberty&#8217; is an outright lie.  The Constitution, which should protect my inalienable rights, becomes the hammer with which to destroy them.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
