Liberty dollars could not be a negotiable instrument it it required all retailers to keep track of the hourly value of silver or gold.

All references to the founding fathers aside, I believe you’re completely missing my point.

My issue is NOT that it is sold at a premium. I am not against profit in any way, and I understand that as businessmen offering an alternative currency, they have every right to make as much profit as the market will bear. Since they’ve created a currency that actually holds value (unlike FRN’s), I think it perfectly reasonable that people would be willing to pay above the spot price in USD to hold that currency.

My issue is that all the public marketing of the currency, and the fact that they are trying to “price” it near but below that of the USD dollar, indicates that they are trying to pass it as an equivalent to the US dollar, not an alternative. They could have left it stamped at $10 ALD and still sold it for $18 USD, because there should be no relationship between what the number stamped on their currency and the number printed on US FRN’s. But they didn’t do that, and the marketing material they offer indicates that the reason they didn’t do so may not be as wholesome as you ascribe.

The problem, as I see it, is that they’re offering a currency that’s fairly valued at about $15-16 USD, and yet people are trying to buy $20 USD items with it. I wouldn’t even call that a scam (as they can’t control what those buyers try to do with the currency), except that their own marketing is clearly designed to encourage that when they suggest that it should be bought “at a discount” and spent “at a profit”. It’s clear that they want to create the impression that $20 ALD should be used to purchase $20 USD worth of goods, a fundamentally flawed impression.

I have no problem with them making profit on the currency. I really don’t care what they stamp on it. They could just as easily have made $1 ALD = 1 oz of silver or $100 ALD = 1 oz of silver. Where I think the scam occurs is in constantly trying to re-price the currency near (but below) parity with the USD in order for it to be spent “at a profit” when purchasing goods priced in USD.

“The problem is that the USD continuously falls in value as the money supply is inflated.

This causes a problem for both NORFED and the government.”

It only causes a problem for NORFED if they are trying to achieve parity with the USD, i.e. if they are trying to create the [false] assumption in Liberty Associates, Merchants, and store clerks that $20 ALD can and should be spent at the same value as $20 USD. The currencies are different, thus it is only a problem for NORFED if they choose to make it a problem.

It is, of course, a major problem for government (and any of us that use FRN’s).

“NORFED tries to solve it by step adjustments in the value of the silver ounce ALD so that it alternately jumps above and then decays back towards parity, tracking the USD price of silver, over the long term.”

Again, if they try to “price” their currency relatively close to the USD, then does it not seem to you like they’re trying to have it used 1:1 for transactions denominated in USD? But that’s fundamentally fraudulent, as it is not 1:1 equivalent. It is always priced such that it is redeemable for less in USD than an equivalent denomination in USD. Thus if you try to spend it as a 1:1 equivalent you’re screwing the merchant, not “using an alternative currency”.

An alternative currency doesn’t have to track the USD. The proper answer would be to float the currency. After all, wouldn’t it be nice for the Liberty Dollar folks to walk into a store with a $10 ALD (old base) piece and be able to tell a store clerk that 5 years ago, it was worth $6 USD, and now it’s worth $15 USD, because the USD has fallen so badly? Perhaps the holder of that piece can convince a store owner to accept a $10 ALD (old based) piece for an item that is priced at $15 USD (which is ethical) instead of trying to get a store owner to sell him a $20 USD item for $20 ALD (new base, which is closer to $15 USD).

“Yhe government tries to solve the problem by first shifting from precious metals to ever cheaper base metals, and when even that can’t keep up with unrelenting money supply inflation, it declares that it is illegal to melt down pennies to recover their copper value.”

Again, there is absolutely NO argument with you on this point. I have my concerns with the Liberty Dollar, but what they’re doing is small potatoes. The actions of our Federal Reserve are capable (and potentially likely) of destabilizing the entire world economy when (if?) it collapses. They’ve built a house of sand, and it seems like the tide is coming in.

Well, actually your currency increased from about $7 USD to about $15 USD over the last several years, regardless of what’s stamped on the round. Your holdings increased in value [relative to the USD] because silver grew in value [relative to the USD], NOT because they re-stamped it at $20 instead of $10. Plus, you “made” $8 USD, not $10 USD, but if you sucker some store clerk into accepting that $20 ALD as if it were $20 USD, then you can say you “made” $10, but I wouldn’t call it ethical.

Money in this country used to be a measurement of weight. The dollar represented a certain number of grains of gold or silver, and it was a definable quantity. When something was stamped $20, that meant it had 20 times the specified number of grains of gold or silver in it.

There is a rule of law, and there is a basis of inherent rights in the United States of America. We have certain abilities as citizens in this land, but only if we stand up and hold on to those rights. The moment we sit down and say “okay” when they step forward and take away that which we are endowed with by our creator, then that is the moment we voluntarily hand over power and authority to something which otherwise would not have had it.

There have been three attempts in this country to introduce a central bank. The first two occurred in the early 1800s and were shut down quickly. Andrew Jackson wrote that the second bank of the the United States was “a brood of vipers, and I intend to route you out!” It’s actually a significant matter of historical irony that he appears on our most common denomination today in the Federal Reserve Notes (FRNs).

We do not have money in this nation. Find an old Black’s Law dictionary from before the 1920s. You’ll find a definition for the dollar as a specific weight of gold or silver. Find one after that time, and it’s a circular relationship tied to cents. A dollar is 100 cents. A cent is 1/100th of a dollar. There is no longer a finite, tangible correlation to anything.

The Federal Reserve Banking Sysem is not federal, it’s a group of private bankers. And they are stealing everything from this nation through their illegal system of credit. The only reason we think we have to abide by their criminal system is because they have set everything in our society up to make it seem that way. And, if it’s been that way forever… it must be right.

Look at the value of the “U.S. dollar” since 1913, when the Glass-Owen Act was passed which created the Federal Reserve. It has decreased 25x!!! What used to cost 4 cents, now costs one dollar. That decline is unprecedented in our nation’s history because the dollar used to be a measurement of weight referring to gold or silver. And that value didn’t change significantly over time.

From 1635 until 1913, the “U.S. Dollar” was fairly consistent, at around 25 times what it is worth today. That’s 275 years it maintained its value. Since I’ve been alive, 1960s, the value of the dollar has decreased 5 times. What used to cost 20 cents, now cost a dollar.

We (the U.S. citizens) are being taken advantage of by a criminal group of gangsters who seem legitimate because they are tied to the government. We need to self-educate, learn the difference between rights and privileges, and then stand upon the rule of law and take back our nation.

Patriots like Ron Paul who recognize the difference, who are educated, and who believe in controlling government, are the only candidates that should ever be considered. They are the one who will keep this nation “the land of the free, the home of the brave.” It is not that way today under either Democrat or Republican rule. They are both playing for the same side. If you could envision it this way, there’s one puppet master, the Federal Reserve Banking System, and its global partners, and there are two puppets on each hand. But, they’re controlled by the same entity.

Education is key. Educate yourself about righs. About the fundamental principles of the rule of law. And then stand up for yourself, and your neighbor in so doing.

Read what George Washington wrote about government. Google “George Washington government force”.

God bless!

The Fed could do the same, only they’d have to take your $20 bill and give you back a $10 bill to accurately reflect it’s loss in purchasing power. With the silver round the LD folks are re-stamping it to reflect it’s increase in value. The holder of the Liberty Dollar is the winner here. Having it re-stamped is visual confirmation of this. I am not sure if they charge a substantial fee for the re-stamping or what the postage cost is, but I think it is marvelous that I could have a currency that doubled in value each time the prices of silver, gold, or copper hit a certain price benchmark.

What kind of a “scam” is this where your money doubles in value every few years? I want to be “suckered” by that kind of scam!

Why should it be incumbent upon the consumer & small business owner to constantly
re-calculate the amount of silver they want to trade for a consumer good or service,
when a perfectly good index exists: prices denominated in Federal Reserve Notes.

The companies/industries involved have made an in depth study of their selling prices, even
going as far as hedging input costs & foreign currency exposure.

In a regime of silver money the consumer & businessman could make adjustments
in the amount of silver traded for a good or service since there would be more information
on the relationship of silver to goods/services(comparable to FRN price information now).

At this date constant inflation makes on going re-calculations of prices denominated in ounces of silver impractical.

Interst in the ALD comes from the FRNs failure as a store of value and not as a medium of exchange.

Denominating the ALD in FRNs is essentially is it’s own “Suggested Retail Price” to trade for consumer goods
& services denominated in FRNs.

The value added components of the ALD over silver bullion.

(1.)SUGGESTED CURRENT 1:1 RELATIONSHIP TO FEDERAL RESERVE NOTES.

(2.)LIMITED ACCEPTANCE AS A CURRENT & FUTURE MEDIUM OF EXCHANGE(UNTIL THE BUST?), COUPLED WITH POTENTIAL AS A STORE OF
VALUE/HEDGE AGAINST FRNs.

(3.)NOVELTY VALUE: TRANSACTING IN ALDs CAN BE VIEWED AS A POLITICAL STATEMENT/VOTE AGAINST FRNs.

On the wholesale level(original ALD purchaser): if the attributes and potential for use of the ALD is viewed to be worth
less than its cost in FRNs, limited transactions will occur.

On the retail level: if the retail price realizable in ALDs is viewed to have less utility than the retail price in FRNs,
Gresham’s Law suggests limited transactions will take place.

Why should it be incumbant upon the consumer & small business owner to constantly
re-calculate the amount of silver they want to trade for a consumer good or servive,
when a perfectly good index exists: prices denominated in Federal Reserve Notes.

The companies/industries involved have made an in depth study of their selling prices, even
going as far as hedging input costs & foreign currency exposure.

In a regime of silver money the consumer & businessman could make adjustments
in the amount of silver traded for a good or service since there would be more information
on the relationship of silver to goods/services(comparable to FRN price information now).

At this date constant inflation makes on going re-calculations of prices denominated in ounces of silver impractical.

Interst in the ALD comes from the FRNs failure as a store of value and not as a medium of exchange.

Denominating the ALD in FRNs is essentially is it’s own “Suggested Retail Price” to trade for consumer goods
& services denominated in FRNs.

The value added components of the ALD over silver bullion.

(1.)SUGGESTED CURRENT 1:1 RELATIONSHIP TO FEDERAL RESERVE NOTES.

(2.)ALD HAS POTENTIAL AS A STORE OF VALUE/HEDGE AGAINST FRNs.

(3.)NOVELTY VALUE: TRANSACTING IN ALDs CAN BE VIEWED AS A POLITICAL STATEMENT/VOTE AGAINST FRNs.

On the wholesale level(original ALD purchaser): if the attributes and potential for use of the ALD is viewed to be worth less
than its cost in FRNs, limited transactions will occur.

On the retail level: if the retail price realizable in ALDs is viewed to have less utility than the retail price in FRNs,
Gresham’s Law suggests limited transactions will take place.

“It would, if they kept the same base rate, mean that $1 ALD is MORE valuable than $1 USD, instead of the current state, where $1 ALD is LESS valuable than $1 USD.”

The problem is that the USD continuously falls in value as the money supply is inflated.

This causes a problem for both NORFED and the government.

NORFED tries to solve it by step adjustments in the value of the silver ounce ALD so that it alternately jumps above and then decays back towards parity, tracking the USD price of silver, over the long term.

Yhe government tries to solve the problem by first shifting from precious metals to ever cheaper base metals, and when even that can’t keep up with unrelenting money supply inflation, it declares that it is illegal to melt down pennies to recover their copper value.

And the government makes no attempt to otherwise deal with previously minted coins that price themselves out of circulation.

Regards, Don

My name may be familiar to some from my position and demands for deeply honest answers (regardless the pain) toward understanding 9/11 and the wars based upon its arguable myth. Yet, I’d sooner trade the importance I see in THAT issue, behind the importance of coming to grips with the nature and mechanisms fraudulently underwriting the U.S. Dollar.

We will have plenty of time to investigate and apprehend the crafty players behind 9/11, if only we can survive the turmoil afoot in unraveling the most massive and deleterious “money” scam the world has ever seen; the U.S. Dollar unconstitutionally created out of thin air through the con of Federal Reserve Notes.

Hold tight dear friends of liberty, freedom, peace and prosperity… our world is going to be rocked hard even further than we may have ever imagined.

Could it possibly be, that the occupiers of high office in U.S. governance are so completely ignorant of the details in this case… OR, that influential movers and shakers KNOW exactly what they are doing, traitorously cognizant that what they do imperils America to her core? “A plan” of hellishly devious greed and power of the few seeking control over the many?

The truth will out, for she is unstoppable.

Erin S. Myers

Currently, with the price of Silver, 1 Liberty Dollar = .86 Cents

The Liberty Dollars are purchased by associtates at a discount, currently the discount is 4.7%, so a 1$ liberty can be bought by an associate right now for 95.7 cents. (Not a huge profit)

But merchants who accept liberty dollars profit by giving liberty dollars as change– They profit because not every merchant in town will accept liberty dollars, so if a customer voluntarily agrees to accept the liberties as change, they will most likely come back and use the liberties in the future for more purchases, making a repeat customer. More sales means more profits. The more people who use liberty dollars in a community will bring business to those merchants who accept the liberty dollars. That is how they profit.

It is not a multi-level marketing scheme, however, you can call it a single-tier sponsorship program, much like amazon.com or paypal use. For every associate you personally sponsor, you get 100 liberty dollars. No multi-level marketing. It’s designed to encourage more people to use the voluntary currency.

Duh, it’s not a scam, it’s called “Seigniorage” (see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seigniorage ).

The US Mint does it on a regular basis — normally ridiculously so. (Oh, and the minted “dollar designation” on the coins from the US mint are FAR MORE deceptive and fraudulent than anything from the Liberty Dollar folks.)

Personally, I think they should NOT have put a “dollar value” on the damn things at all — but instead should have just BOLDLY stated the specie value of the coin itself, i.e. ONE OUNCE PURE GOLD, etc. (obviously with the 99.999% purity disclaimer value in fine print, etc.)