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	<title>Comments on: Can The Government Force You To Reveal A Password ?</title>
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	<description>Life. Liberty. Property. Defending individual freedom and liberty, one post at a time.</description>
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		<title>By: Daniel Schlotte</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50337</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Schlotte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2008 03:43:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50337</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[let us remember that the constitution was created so that the government had boundaries in which it must play. to chip away at the boundaries is to destroy &quot;we the people.&quot; as several people have stated, the 5th amendment does not say that once you start to speak you are compelled to continue, so even if he did type in the password before, he did not do it in  a way so that the agents could view it, nor did he write it down. it is locked in his head and that&#039;s where it gets to stay.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>let us remember that the constitution was created so that the government had boundaries in which it must play. to chip away at the boundaries is to destroy &#8220;we the people.&#8221; as several people have stated, the 5th amendment does not say that once you start to speak you are compelled to continue, so even if he did type in the password before, he did not do it in  a way so that the agents could view it, nor did he write it down. it is locked in his head and that&#8217;s where it gets to stay.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Selene</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50265</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Selene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 04:11:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50265</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Still, it doesn&#039;t look to me like Boucher had previously incriminated himself. And, even if he had, why is forced to continue? That isn&#039;t what the 5th Amendment says.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Still, it doesn&#8217;t look to me like Boucher had previously incriminated himself. And, even if he had, why is forced to continue? That isn&#8217;t what the 5th Amendment says.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Mataconis</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50216</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Mataconis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 20:58:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50216</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;So, law enforcement never actually saw any images, only the names of the images. The names weren’t good, obviously, but that doesn’t mean that the images were actually child pornography. At this point Boucher hasn’t revealed anything incriminating, has he?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t know. The Times article and Kerr&#039;s article both say that the officers did view at least one video file that could be described as child pornography.

&lt;blockquote&gt;So, he’s saying that the files could be there accidentally, which is technically possible if you use a news reader and set it up to download all the images in a newsgroup at a given time. He is also saying that he deleted any files that he became aware of that were illegal. Is there anything there to incriminate him from a legal perspective?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It would depend on what the statute he was being charaged under said about intent.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>So, law enforcement never actually saw any images, only the names of the images. The names weren’t good, obviously, but that doesn’t mean that the images were actually child pornography. At this point Boucher hasn’t revealed anything incriminating, has he?</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t know. The Times article and Kerr&#8217;s article both say that the officers did view at least one video file that could be described as child pornography.</p>
<blockquote><p>So, he’s saying that the files could be there accidentally, which is technically possible if you use a news reader and set it up to download all the images in a newsgroup at a given time. He is also saying that he deleted any files that he became aware of that were illegal. Is there anything there to incriminate him from a legal perspective?</p></blockquote>
<p>It would depend on what the statute he was being charaged under said about intent.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Selene</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50215</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Selene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 20:42:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50215</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Doug, you might want to check out this Computerworld &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&amp;articleId=9057740&amp;source=NLT_SEC&amp;nlid=38&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;article&lt;/a&gt;. It has some additional details, including:
&lt;blockquote&gt;A special agent who had experience and training in identifying child pornography was then called in to inspect Boucher&#039;s computer. That inspection revealed several images of adult and animated child pornography. But when the special agent tried to click on the file with the name suggesting child pornography, he found he was unable to open it.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
So, law enforcement never actually saw any images, only the names of the images. The names weren&#039;t good, obviously, but that doesn&#039;t mean that the images were actually child pornography. At this point Boucher hasn&#039;t revealed anything incriminating, has he? 
&lt;blockquote&gt;When asked about the file, Boucher stated that he visited various newsgroups from which he downloaded pornographic images. He conceded that some of the files might unknowingly be child porn but added that he deleted those files when he saw them.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
So, he&#039;s saying that the files could be there accidentally, which is technically possible if you use a news reader and set it up to download all the images in a newsgroup at a given time. He is also saying that he deleted any files that he became aware of that were illegal. Is there anything there to incriminate him from a legal perspective?

Now, if law enforcement gains access to those files, they can perform technical forensics on them to prove, or disprove, his story. They can only do so if they can decrypt the files and folders that are encrypted. By providing them with the password to perform the decryption he is giving them access to evidence that is potentially incriminating. That seems to violate the 5th amendment, since he has never done that in the past.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doug, you might want to check out this Computerworld <a href="http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&#038;articleId=9057740&#038;source=NLT_SEC&#038;nlid=38" rel="nofollow">article</a>. It has some additional details, including:</p>
<blockquote><p>A special agent who had experience and training in identifying child pornography was then called in to inspect Boucher&#8217;s computer. That inspection revealed several images of adult and animated child pornography. But when the special agent tried to click on the file with the name suggesting child pornography, he found he was unable to open it.</p></blockquote>
<p>So, law enforcement never actually saw any images, only the names of the images. The names weren&#8217;t good, obviously, but that doesn&#8217;t mean that the images were actually child pornography. At this point Boucher hasn&#8217;t revealed anything incriminating, has he? </p>
<blockquote><p>When asked about the file, Boucher stated that he visited various newsgroups from which he downloaded pornographic images. He conceded that some of the files might unknowingly be child porn but added that he deleted those files when he saw them.</p></blockquote>
<p>So, he&#8217;s saying that the files could be there accidentally, which is technically possible if you use a news reader and set it up to download all the images in a newsgroup at a given time. He is also saying that he deleted any files that he became aware of that were illegal. Is there anything there to incriminate him from a legal perspective?</p>
<p>Now, if law enforcement gains access to those files, they can perform technical forensics on them to prove, or disprove, his story. They can only do so if they can decrypt the files and folders that are encrypted. By providing them with the password to perform the decryption he is giving them access to evidence that is potentially incriminating. That seems to violate the 5th amendment, since he has never done that in the past.</p>
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		<title>By: The Crossed Pond &#187; The 5th Amendment in the Information Age</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50209</link>
		<dc:creator>The Crossed Pond &#187; The 5th Amendment in the Information Age</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 19:37:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50209</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] at the Liberty Papers has an interesting overview of a case that&#8217;s getting some attention in constitutionalist circles, that being, can you be [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] at the Liberty Papers has an interesting overview of a case that&#8217;s getting some attention in constitutionalist circles, that being, can you be [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Selene</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50162</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Selene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 04:17:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50162</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You know, I tend to be of the &quot;literal words of the Constitution&quot; bent. The 5th Amendment doesn&#039;t say:
&lt;blockquote&gt;nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, except when he already said something against himself, in which case it is perfectly fine to compel him to be a witness&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Given the words in the Amendment, it seems to me that a person may stop talking at any point and the State has no more Constitutional ability to compel anything. It seems to me that this would include providing a password to his encryption software.

If the State cannot make its case without compelling this guy to provide information that can be used to incriminate him, then it cannot make its case.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, I tend to be of the &#8220;literal words of the Constitution&#8221; bent. The 5th Amendment doesn&#8217;t say:</p>
<blockquote><p>nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, except when he already said something against himself, in which case it is perfectly fine to compel him to be a witness</p></blockquote>
<p>Given the words in the Amendment, it seems to me that a person may stop talking at any point and the State has no more Constitutional ability to compel anything. It seems to me that this would include providing a password to his encryption software.</p>
<p>If the State cannot make its case without compelling this guy to provide information that can be used to incriminate him, then it cannot make its case.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian T. Traylor</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50158</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian T. Traylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 03:22:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50158</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think Jeff stated what I was trying to get at:

Does a single waiver imply subsequent waivers? Can a suspect decide at any point in the process to shut up, or is he bound to keep talking (or provide the password again) after he&#039;s opened his mouth once?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Jeff stated what I was trying to get at:</p>
<p>Does a single waiver imply subsequent waivers? Can a suspect decide at any point in the process to shut up, or is he bound to keep talking (or provide the password again) after he&#8217;s opened his mouth once?</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Molby</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50086</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Molby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:46:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50086</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Under the waiver law that exists, a fairly good case can be made that this guy waived his right against self-incrimination.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
But does a single waiver constitute perpetual waivers? If I invite a cop into my home, does that mean he&#039;s free to come back against my wishes?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Under the waiver law that exists, a fairly good case can be made that this guy waived his right against self-incrimination.
</p></blockquote>
<p>But does a single waiver constitute perpetual waivers? If I invite a cop into my home, does that mean he&#8217;s free to come back against my wishes?</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Mataconis</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50079</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Mataconis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:32:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50079</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;One other thing: he showed the agent the files before he was arrested, and thus, before he was Mirandized. Once read his rights, he is now choosing to exercise them. Does the timeline matter to you?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No, because there was no probable cause to arrest him until he showed them the incriminating files.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>One other thing: he showed the agent the files before he was arrested, and thus, before he was Mirandized. Once read his rights, he is now choosing to exercise them. Does the timeline matter to you?</p></blockquote>
<p>No, because there was no probable cause to arrest him until he showed them the incriminating files.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Mataconis</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50078</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Mataconis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:31:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50078</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Brian,

These are the facts:

1. He acknowledged to law enforcement officers that the computer was his. Under the Fifth Amendment he could have refused to answer.

2. He accessed encrypted files, presumably by using the password and allowed the l.e.o&#039;s to look at them.

It&#039;s a fairly standard rule that the privilege against self-incrimination can be voluntarily waived and, inexplicably, criminal suspects often do it in situations where the smartest thing to do would be to shut the heck up.

Under the waiver law that exists, a fairly good case can be made that this guy waived his right against self-incrimination.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian,</p>
<p>These are the facts:</p>
<p>1. He acknowledged to law enforcement officers that the computer was his. Under the Fifth Amendment he could have refused to answer.</p>
<p>2. He accessed encrypted files, presumably by using the password and allowed the l.e.o&#8217;s to look at them.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a fairly standard rule that the privilege against self-incrimination can be voluntarily waived and, inexplicably, criminal suspects often do it in situations where the smartest thing to do would be to shut the heck up.</p>
<p>Under the waiver law that exists, a fairly good case can be made that this guy waived his right against self-incrimination.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian T. Traylor</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50076</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian T. Traylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:26:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50076</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Doug,

I cannot agree with you.

Ownership is irrelevant to the question of self-incrimination. Ownership of the computer can be established by matching the serial code of the computer against manufacturer sales records. Plus, it was in his possession, and he attested that it was his.

Imagine I&#039;m suspected of a crime and I have a conversation with a police officer wherein I reveal information that indicates I may be guilty, but when asked later, he can&#039;t remember just what I said and has no tangible record of the conversation. The court wants to use this information to prosecute me, but because he cannot remember the details,  the court has issued a subpoena requiring me to restate what I originally said for the record.

Must I repeat the conversation and incriminate myself?

I don&#039;t understand how you&#039;ve come to the conclusion that certain factors, like him having previously accessed the files, now causes him to forfeit his right to not incriminate himself.

One other thing: he showed the agent the files before he was arrested, and thus, before he was Mirandized. Once read his rights, he is now choosing to exercise them. Does the timeline matter to you?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doug,</p>
<p>I cannot agree with you.</p>
<p>Ownership is irrelevant to the question of self-incrimination. Ownership of the computer can be established by matching the serial code of the computer against manufacturer sales records. Plus, it was in his possession, and he attested that it was his.</p>
<p>Imagine I&#8217;m suspected of a crime and I have a conversation with a police officer wherein I reveal information that indicates I may be guilty, but when asked later, he can&#8217;t remember just what I said and has no tangible record of the conversation. The court wants to use this information to prosecute me, but because he cannot remember the details,  the court has issued a subpoena requiring me to restate what I originally said for the record.</p>
<p>Must I repeat the conversation and incriminate myself?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t understand how you&#8217;ve come to the conclusion that certain factors, like him having previously accessed the files, now causes him to forfeit his right to not incriminate himself.</p>
<p>One other thing: he showed the agent the files before he was arrested, and thus, before he was Mirandized. Once read his rights, he is now choosing to exercise them. Does the timeline matter to you?</p>
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		<title>By: UCrawford</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50071</link>
		<dc:creator>UCrawford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:34:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50071</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nor should it.  You should punish the abhorrence level of the crimes with the sentencing, not with how you catch the crook.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nor should it.  You should punish the abhorrence level of the crimes with the sentencing, not with how you catch the crook.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Mataconis</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50070</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Mataconis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:20:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50070</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, but the thing is that the Constitution doesn&#039;t contain exceptions based on the type of offense at issue.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, but the thing is that the Constitution doesn&#8217;t contain exceptions based on the type of offense at issue.</p>
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		<title>By: TheAmericanLie</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50068</link>
		<dc:creator>TheAmericanLie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 13:05:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/01/17/can-the-government-force-you-to-reveal-a-password/#comment-50068</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If it were something else other than child porn I might agree with the defendant but as far as child porn goes, I can&#039;t agree.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If it were something else other than child porn I might agree with the defendant but as far as child porn goes, I can&#8217;t agree.</p>
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