Thoughts, essays, and writings on Liberty. Written by the heirs of Patrick Henry.

February 4, 2008

Illegal Immigrants And Driver’s Licenses

by Doug Mataconis

There’s a very good post up over at Cato@Liberty on the debate that erupted between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton over whether states should be permitted to give driver’s licenses to people who are in the country illegally.

As the post’s author notes, the right answer to the question has little to do with immigration:

Many people believe that illegal immigrants shouldn’t be “rewarded” with drivers’ licenses. Fair enough: the rule of law is important. There’s also a theory that denying illegal immigrants “benefits” like driver licensing will make the country inhospitable enough that they will leave. This has not borne out, however. Denying illegal immigrants licenses has merely caused unlicensed and untrained driving, with the hit-and-run accidents and higher insurance rates that flow from that.

The major reason, though, why I agree with Senator Obama is because the linking of driver licensing and immigration status is part of the move to convert the driver’s license into a national ID card. Mission-creep at the country’s DMVs is not just causing growth in one of the least-liked bureaucracies. It’s creating the infrastructure for direct regulatory control of individuals by the federal government.

Were immigration status and driver licensing solidly linked nationwide, the driver’s license would not just be a “benefit” of citizenship. It would then clearly be amenable to use as an immigration-control tool — as has already been proposed. Law-abiding, native-born citizens would more and more often be required to show ID. And it would be converted to additional uses. The federal government could condition our access to goods, services, and infrastructure on carrying and presenting a national ID, possession of which the government could make conditional on every regulatory whim that swept past.

This isn’t just a theory. As I noted last month, the Department of Homeland Security is proposing that we be required to show identification to purchase some over-the-counter cold medications. More importantly though, as with nearly everything else that comes from the state, this proposal to help “secure the borders” ends up making all of us less free. By turning the driver’s license, which when it was created was merely meant to signify that the holder has passed basic tests to show that they knew how to operate a motor vehicle safely, into an immigration enforcement tool, we have suddenly created, through the back door, the very National ID that people claim to oppose.

More importantly, there’s absolutely no evidence that denying driver’s licenses to illegal immigrants will do anything to stop illegal immigration. People come here for jobs, and they’ll get to those jobs any way they need to (around here it’s pretty common to see them going everywhere by bicycle) even if that means driving without a driver’s license. And unless they’re picked up in a traffic infraction, nobody will ever know about it.

Alex Knapp puts it best at Outside The Beltway:

One of the worst things about the Know-Nothing anti-illegal immigration crowd is that virtually all of the measures proposed by them to “secure the border” ends up making the country a less free place to be. I am livid at the fact that I now need a passport just to go to Canada–one of our staunchest allies and trade partners. I feel like a criminal every time I get a new job and an employer has to run a background and immigration check to make sure that I’m a citizen. I was positively appalled at the antics of the INS against a friend of mine from New Zealand (another staunch ally and trade partner) regarding his visa conditions, when all he wants to do is go to college here.

And it’s only going to get worse from there. Once you turn the driver’s license into a “citizenship verification card,” there’s no end to the possible uses that the state can make of it.

And that’s why, if they can pass the basic road safety tests, illegal immigrants should be allowed to get driver’s licenses.

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  • TanGeng

    This is definitely a states rights issue. Let the states decide what should be do. So of course the answer is the Federal government should do nothing to prevent the states from issuing driver’s licenses. The Federal government if it wishes may create its own ID card that should have no link or voluntary link on the part of the states.

    That’s why this Real ID crap is so horrible. I’d rather carry my passport than have to deal with reissuing driver’s licenses and other technology.

  • Pingback: Below The Beltway » Blog Archive » Why Illegal Immigrants Should Be Allowed To Get Driver’s Licenses()

  • http://aol.com Ricky Bobby

    illegals should receive nothing besides a quick deportation. The day is coming.

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    RB,

    Exactly how you think it’s even possible to deport 20 million people, some of whom now have children who are American citizens, is beyond me.

    Unless the concept of human rights means nothing to you, that is.

  • http://aol.com Ricky Bobby

    Doug, don’t forget these illegals are criminals who have consistently broken multiple laws. Of course it is possible to deport every illegal even if they have anchor babies. We need to continue the deportations which greatly increased last year! :) Also, the anchor baby law needs to be overturned! :) And second, I think it’s best for both the government and citizens to go after the employers and companies that cater to illegals with serious consequences. :) After Bank of America offered accounts to illegals, I closed my account as did many other Americans. :) You know and I know it is going to get worse for the illegals. They aren’t going to want to stick around. Even the dumb ones will self-deport. :)

  • http://dangerouslyidealistic.blogspot.com/ UCrawford

    RB,

    Doug, don’t forget these illegals are criminals who have consistently broken multiple laws.

    If you’re referring to the immigration laws that are based on absurdly low quotas set back in 1960 then I don’t really consider them criminals for violating it. As for real crimes, they don’t generally commit any more than the rest of society at large and I hazard to guess they’d commit a lot fewer if they weren’t basically treated like murdering scum simply for coming here to work.

    And second, I think it’s best for both the government and citizens to go after the employers and companies that cater to illegals with serious consequences.

    I like the low prices that companies are able to provide me on their services by hiring immigrant labor. Frankly, I’d rather not raise those prices by imposing higher overhead on companies with compliance costs and a restriction of their available labor force.

    After Bank of America offered accounts to illegals, I closed my account as did many other Americans.

    Smart people would close their account because Bank of America sucks because their CEO is a spendthrift who’s plunging them into debt. You, however, apparently closed your account over an issue that had nothing to do with you…not to mention the fact that illegals who hold a bank account are far more likely to pay taxes and invest than those who have nowhere to save their cash, which makes your proposal economically counter-productive.

  • http://poppychop.net/ Nitroadict

    America: Where Immigrants Oppress Other Immigrants From Becoming Immigrants Like The Rest Of Us Immigrants.

    Spot on post, Doug. This also, imo, reinforces the possible idea of a NAU being shoved down our throats; just like cough syrup, little doses at a time…

  • NA

    This might be offtopic, but I’ve considered myself to be a libertarian for some time now and I don’t understand why the libertarian powers-that-be are so easy on illegal immigration. My libertarianism has always been one of a tough “Law and Order” stance, which requires me to oppose McCain-Finegold and other such attempts as “amnesty”. Am I wrong, or is the libertarian mainstream very off to the left on immigration?

  • NA

    **Ignore the McCain-Feingold refrence, I meant Jon McCains immigration reform.

  • http://thelibertypapers.org/ Brad Warbiany

    RB,

    don’t forget these illegals are criminals who have consistently broken multiple laws.

    Consistently broken multiple laws?

    And I’m sure you never break laws, right? I’m sure you don’t speed daily, make illegal right turns on red, potentially get “overly-creative” on your tax return, and wouldn’t hesitate to buy a toilet that flushes over the allowed amount for your home.

    There are lots of laws, and it’s difficult to exist in society without breaking multiple laws daily. So I fail to see your point.

  • http://thelibertypapers.org/ Brad Warbiany

    NA,

    My libertarianism has always been one of a tough “Law and Order” stance, which requires me to oppose McCain-Finegold and other such attempts as “amnesty”. Am I wrong, or is the libertarian mainstream very off to the left on immigration?

    The doctrinaire libertarian position is twofold:

    1) Immigration is an act that does not restrict anyones’ rights. I.e. a willing property owner infringes on the rights of no one by renting to someone who may not be here legally, and a willing employer infringes on the rights of no one by hiring an illegal immigrant. Making immigration illegal, however, does infringe on the freedom of people to associate and contract with those who may be person 1,000,001 when there are only a million “legal” immigration slots.

    2) Many libertarians are “law and order” types. Most of us are pro-gun, and would stand up for the rights of someone who, for example, used lethal force to defend his property. However, we also hold that there is a different between what is “illegal” and what is “immoral”. For example, libertarians believe that we should end the war on drugs, because while it’s illegal to buy/sell/use drugs, that is not a legitimate law (as they are victimless crimes). Thus, because we (the doctrinaire libertarians) view immigration law to be illegitimate, it makes it impossible to want to punish those who break an illegitimate law through draconian means.

    There are many disagreements within the wider libertarian-leaning population, though, as many suggest that large-scale immigration is incompatible with the welfare state we’ve created, and thus it would be best to choose one or the other (and the American people chose the welfare state). I think that argument can be defeated, but that’s an argument I don’t have the time to take up today.

  • TanGeng

    Brad,

    I’ll address that issue. There are two types of immigration. Sometimes there is an intersection, but illegal aliens are rarely both. The first type is the migrant worker that comes here for the opportunity and works under the table. The second type is the pregnant mother who comes here for the automatic citizenship, the education system, and the welfare system.

    Men generally make up the first type, although some women do as well. Women and children are of the second type. Only the second type of illegal immigration is of any danger to the welfare system. The first type of illegal immigration has two effects. The cheaper under the table labor produces higher growth rates for the economy and the cheaper labor under the table helps achieve wage depression. The average American worker is worse off at least in the short term. In the long run the growth rate and the wage depression offset and barring illegals from the US also promotes outsourcing since the businesses will leave to seek out cheaper labor anyways.

    The detrimental effect of migrant workers is that they send their money home where the cost of living is lower. For America this makes no difference. Americans don’t save at all anyways. The outward flowing dollars eventually makes its way back to America in the form of increased exports. The workers also spend money to sustain themselves in the US. They consume food and shelter and creates a use for the more rundown buildings.

    Guest worker programs are fine. They even tax the individuals to make those productive people pay for the welfare system that they rarely use. It’s the second type of immigration that saddles the government with social costs. The children that grow up with illegals as parent use the education system and the healthcare system as well as growing up poor and more susceptible to criminal activity.

  • Bettybb

    When people go abroad to a foreign country, they obtain international drivers licenses. They buy insurance in their home country that covers them.
    The illegals could do this, but they won’t; they are lawless and are parasites, whose goal is not to integrate but to exploit soft hearted people.

    The only reason they want a US license is to appear to be American and to use it to say they have rights in this country.

    What is going on in our country?

    It seems the real goal of business, the media and politicians is to integrate USA with Mexico.

    McCain’s Hispanic Outreach person was a Cabinet member in Mexico’s Vicente Fox’s government and is openly for reconquest of Southwest USA. Some of his comments.

    “I never knew the border as a limitation; I’d be delighted if all of us could come and go between these two marvelous countries.”

    “We have recognized that the Mexican population is 100 million in Mexico and 23 million who live in the United States…We are a united nation.”

    Mexican immigrants “are going to keep one foot in Mexico and are not going to assimilate.”

    “We are betting that the Mexican population in the United States …will think Mexico first.”

    Huck is pro amensty. He has a touch back provison hidden in his program that iwll have illegals back in the USA as legals in no time. Check with the pro legal immigration groups, they have his number.

    Why else would business in states with only 5% Hispanic population have the press 1…. and advertise in Spanish? Hispanics are only 18% of the popualtion. Why is ANYONE adverstising in Spanish? Check out Judicial Watch and Stopamericanunion.com. The rumor is that Bush has agreed to completely open borders by 2010. So business is just gearing up, and it is part of the plan for integration without Americans consent.

    The only candidates left standing for America are Mitt and Paul and this is from a 20 year plus Dem voter who has never voted for a Repub President in her life. But really our country is at stake.

    Why a secret formation of a North American Union – so the “elite” can reap huge profits.

    Don’t believe me?

    Read David Brooks of the NYT article in December 2007 furious because as he put it ” the elite” had a bipartisan agreement for free trade and nafta that was raking in the money and Lou Dobbs screwed it up. He did not mention that the money goes to the “elite” and ordinary Americans are hung out to dry.

    Check Judical Watch and read the Bush government that says that as Americans will resist North American integration. it has to be done in secret, and implemented by “evolution stealth”. You can also read the agendas of meetings between USA/Mexico/Canada on infrastructure integration and open borders.

    Check Jeff Hoards videos (google Jeff Hoards) showing our politicans lying about the existance of the North American Highway which is being built right now.

    Why doesn’t business, the media, the politicians ever call for more legal immigration? They don’t want it. They just want Mexicans to integrate with Americans; ie evolutionary stealth.

    Why has Bush just let the Mexican truckers into the USA even though Congress barred it by laws? Evolutionary stealth.

    Why has Congress just pass some provisions in the Omnibus bill that has gutted the Fence act to the point it will never be built. Evolutionary Stealth.

    Why did Bush pull the National Guard and 1/2 the Border Patrol off the border last August and has not returned them? Evolutionary stealth.

    Why are our borders open to the South – but not at the airports etc. Only Mexicans are need to integrate the two countries. Evolutionary stealth.

    Why is our government implementing Spanish as a second language in the USA? Evolutionary stealth.

    Why has Bush done nothing to force employers to follow the law. Evolutionary steatlth.

    Why did Bush pull 1000 ICE agents of illegal alien deportation? He wants to deport the fewest possible. Evolutionary stealth.

    The latest is a request to have a cattle inspection station in the USA, not just on the Mexican side of the border. http://www.cattlenetwork.com/content.asp?contentid=194864

    People we are in the fight of our lives for our language, culture, and nation. The other side has all the power and money and they are fighting for the “elite” to gain even greater control of a joint Mexican /Amerian economy. All we have is the internet and our vote. And with Diebold, I am not even sure of the vote.

    Mexico, La Raza and the pro amensty supporters (Neo Cons, Dems, Rudy, McCain, Huck, Hilliary, Obama, media, big business) have started a big campaign to convince Americans to throw the rule of law out the window and accept racist and preferential amensty for illegals. They are going to spend 25 million in ads alone. ( They should use that money to pay illegals hospital bills). Mexican President Calderon is coming to talk t to the troops.

    It looks like this article is part of that PR effort.

    But they don’t just want to get rid of the rule of law. They are ready to ignore the USA constitution.

    Any amnesty is racist.

    The illegal supporters themselves say between 80-90 percent are Hispanic.

    American immigration law provides quotas to all countries so all Americans have an equal chance to bring in family and race.

    Any amnesty or guest worker program would give a huge PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT to Hispanics over all other Americans., in both number of people allowed in, and timing of their arrival.

    Our Constitution provides an anti discrimination clause and an equal opportunity clause.

    This is non-Hispanic Americans civil rights battle of the 21 st century.
    Are we going to remain a country of laws”

    Are we going to treat all Americans equally, over give prefernce to Hisapanics?

    SAY NO TO AMNESTY DISCRIMINATION IN FAVOR OF HISPANCIS
    SAY YES TO CIVIL RIGHTS FOR ALL AMERICANS

    Folks, this is serious. This may be our last couple of years as a country if we do not take steps to put a stop to the dissolution of the USA into Mexico.

    If we lose, all that will be left is to lower the flag for the last time in the country we once called America.

  • Amyz

    Betty,

    SAY NO TO AMNESTY DISCRIMINATION IN FAVOR OF HISPANCIS

    This appears to be xenophobic diatribe; immigration covers many ethnicities.

    Secondly, these so-called illegal leeches on our American society pay plenty of taxes, for example most pay into Social Security and will never receive benefits. Given that Social Security and Medicare are huge detriment to our balancing a budget one should question removing 10% or more of their contribution. (Although I do not personally agree with SS employment Tax, it is in place, thus economically we should question what happens when you remove 10% or more of contributions: It creates an even larger deficit.) http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html

    Finally, (I will limit myself) how many of us true-blue Americans support our children’s aspirations to become dishwashers, gardeners, agricultural harvesters, or hotel maintenance staff? While some would argue that immigrants bring down the wages for these jobs, I would argue that the majority of Americans would refuse these jobs even at a higher wage. It’s not the wage–it the “job”.

    Public Schools today promote white collar careers and Tech schools are for flunkies. Is it no wonder we have a shortage of welders, for example? Everyone wants to make 50K right out of college. Never mind experience.

    Immigration has always been and will always be. Immigration is not the root of our economic (or security) problems. Review our current immigration policy, update it to reflect a “global market” , review the “real wage” jobs that we are losing to “legal” immigration; ask why we can’t compete: education? work ethic? Immigration is a systemic problem–look there for the solution.

  • http://aol.com Ricky Bobby

    This is a puppet website. Don’t waste your time explaining or defending the established laws of this country. You open-boader posters ought to be waterboarded repeatedly. ILLEGAL IS ILLEGAL.

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    ILLEGAL IS ILLEGAL.

    Because, of course, all laws are just

    Sieg Heil !

  • Whatever…

    Doug you are wrong on this. Driver’s licenses are de-facto citizen papers in this country already. They are often the only thing you need to vote, to open an account, to get a library card, to register for public services, etc.

    You also haven’t had the pleasure, obviously, of living in a area with a large number of illegal aliens. Not only do many of them not care about getting a license, they also feel insurance is also optional because many can’t afford it and just don’t care. Instead they’d rather push the costs off onto everyone else while making hit and run accidents go through the roof.

    Then there is the issue of overcrowded schools, hospitals, gangs in schools, large number of violent criminals who are illegal, low-level ethnic cleansing of blacks in some neighborhoods, etc. The benefits of multi-culturalism are just wondrous.

    Illegal immigration is really bad news. Many of these folks simply don’t share our culture or heritage of freedom, liberty and the idea that govt. doesn’t solve all our problems. If you think socialism/collectivism is bad now, just move to an area with a large latin american community and see who they idolize in their parades and media.

    Open borders advocates are just delusional. Having lived in a border state for years I can tell you simply that Mexico is using the US as their welfare system. We’re not helping the average Mexican citizen with our policies. We should focus on getting Mexico to change how they conduct themselves and not allow them to push their poverty North to take pressure off of their corrupt politicians.

  • http://poppychop.net/ Nitroadict

    Betty sounds an awful like this annoying socialist hippie activist on campus a year ago who just couldn’t convince me how evil capitalism was, despite me adequately pointing out socialism just doesn’t seem to work nor make sense, darn it.

    Many people who like to argue immigration somehow “hurting” America are clueless to the concept of “globalism”, which has been happening & would happen anyways with or without America. (http://www.newamerica.net/publications/articles/2008/waving_goodbye_hegemony_6604)

    “Public Schools today promote white collar careers and Tech schools are for flunkies. Is it no wonder we have a shortage of welders, for example? Everyone wants to make 50K right out of college.” – Amyz (I second this)

    The paranoia that immigration will dissolve the USA’s sovereignty is comical; but I do agree with Tan’s point concerning automatic citizenship.

    Betty, Ricky; would you both like to also point to dark matter as being the source of all the universe’s problems?

  • Jill

    I don’t mind showing my ID, if needed. Heck I went to buy cold medicine yesterday and had to show my drivers license. I have no problem with that. If the REAL ID can weed out the illegals, I’m all for it. And to Doug, if the police were able to enforce immigration law and picked up and deported illegals with no license or insurance, DUI’s, anyone found with forged documents, domestic violence, gang crimes, drunk and disorderly, we could probably get rid of half the illegal population in no time.

  • Pingback: The Black Informant | Some good points on the illegal immigration/driver’s license issue()

  • http://anonymissblog.blogspot.com Anonymiss

    What is your take on those who feel that illegal immigration infringes upon employment opportunities for lower-skilled U.S.-born (or naturalized) workers?

    Also, what are your views on Lou Dobbs’ illegal immigration agenda?

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    What is your take on those who feel that illegal immigration infringes upon employment opportunities for lower-skilled U.S.-born (or naturalized) workers?

    I think it’s mostly nonsense.

    Also, what are your views on Lou Dobbs’ illegal immigration agenda?

    I think they’re mostly nonsense.

  • Whatever…

    “What is your take on those who feel that illegal immigration infringes upon employment opportunities for lower-skilled U.S.-born (or naturalized) workers?

    I think it’s mostly nonsense.”

    No it’s not. Wages in lower skilled jobs have been declining. A shortage of labor would mean rising wages for these jobs. The only reason these wages would continue to fall year over year is because of an oversupply of labor. Illegal aliens can exist on these lower wages by not paying taxes and consuming other services in the society free of charge. This means essentially that lower-skilled American workers are being pushed out of the market and illegal labor is filling the gap. Even worse, the average citizen is subsidizing the companies that pay these lower wages through their local, state and federal taxes.

    Doug doesn’t seem to grasp the basic law of economics: There is no such thing as a free lunch.

    And again it’s painfully obvious that Doug doesn’t live anywhere where a massive illegal alien population exists. If he did he wouldn’t be harping on about all this open borders nonsense. You can’t have open borders and a welfare state as the famous Milton Friedman stated.

    Finally, culture matters. The cultural impacts of massive immigration are starting to show in many areas. Multi-culturalists think the world will somehow just get along, but the reality is that humans just aren’t wired that way. Humans actually get mad when the see a large foreign population moving in and taking up their resources. They get even more mad when this population demands more free services. And, oddly enough, the get really furious when same foreign population begins demanding everything in their own language and anyone who speaks out is a racist.

  • Whatever…

    Doug,

    One more thing Mr. Multi-Culturalist idealist. Illegal immigrants cause loads of crime. Yes, it’s true. Mexico is a failed nation state and has lots of violent criminals. They come up to the US to cause problems. The FBI most wanted list for murder is over 50% hispanic. How odd that so many of these upstanding citizens should end up there. I guess we’re just being mean old racists:

    http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/fugitives/vc/murders/vc_murders.htm

    Since when did it become a crime for a country to secure its borders and make sure the people coming in are people that can actually contribute to our society instead of being parasites and felons?

  • Whatever…

    BTW…thats 44 out of 72 of the FBI’s most wanted murderers are hispanic according to my count. I guess Doug doesn’t see a problem with this demographic trend though. It’s all a bunch of xenophobe hysteria.

  • http://dangerouslyidealistic.blogspot.com/ UCrawford

    Whatever,

    The FBI most wanted list for murder is over 50% hispanic.

    Wow, 44 out of 72 people arbitrarily chosen by the government on a list of targeted individuals happen to be Hispanic. I wonder if that’s really reflective of societal crime statistics at-large or if you’re simply some jackass who doesn’t understand the phrase “small sample size”. Of course only 28 of those people were actually non-citizens from Mexico, which indicates you didn’t do much analysis beyond counting the Hispanic-sounding names, and only four of those were listed as illegal immigrants which kind of shoots your stupid half-assed “theory” full of holes.

  • http://dangerouslyidealistic.blogspot.com/ UCrawford

    Whatever,

    Also,

    Wages in lower skilled jobs have been declining.

    Not below minimum wage, although it could be argued that since minimum wage jobs are essentially those for people with no skills, it’s the minimum wage workers who are stealing from the economy and not the illegal immigrants. The illegal immigrants are being paid for what their labor is worth to their employer…the local workers are being paid what the government is forcing the employer to pay.

    A shortage of labor would mean rising wages for these jobs.

    It would also mean rising prices for the goods and services that labor produces. If you want me to side with local help, arguing that it’s okay for them to dig deeper in my pocket isn’t going to get you much sympathy.

    The only reason these wages would continue to fall year over year is because of an oversupply of labor.

    So what? It keeps prices on consumer goods lower. Frankly, when I go out to buy a lamp for my house, I only care how affordable the lamp for the utility it provides me…I don’t give a shit about how much the workers were paid to build it because I assume they aren’t really thinking much about my finances. I assume that they’re paid enough to convince them to keep working for their employer, otherwise the lamp wouldn’t be there to buy.

    Illegal aliens can exist on these lower wages by not paying taxes and consuming other services in the society free of charge.

    Illegal immigrants often pay taxes:

    http://www.reason.org/commentaries/dalmia_20060501.shtml

    As for immigrants sponging off our welfare, if you get rid of the welfare for everyone it won’t really be a problem, will it? Americans aren’t any more entitled to it than immigrants are because it’s still theft of my tax dollars.

    This means essentially that lower-skilled American workers are being pushed out of the market and illegal labor is filling the gap.

    Then the lower-skilled workers are being overpaid for the services they provide and the market’s finally caught on. So what?

    Doug doesn’t seem to grasp the basic law of economics: There is no such thing as a free lunch.

    He understands it just fine. The lower-skilled workers were benefiting from a system that overpaid them for what they provide (a free lunch) and now they’re paying for it. In case you miss the point, that’s basic economics.

    And again it’s painfully obvious that Doug doesn’t live anywhere where a massive illegal alien population exists.

    I do, it’s great. I once hired one (I think) to mow my lawn. He did a great job and I didn’t have to suffer in 100 degree heat. He also charged less than American companies to do the same work (in less time, actually). Great guy…if I ever decide to quit mowing again I’ll definitely hire him.

    You can’t have open borders and a welfare state as the famous Milton Friedman stated.

    You’re right on that point…and if I have to choose one that needs to go I choose that the welfare state gets the axe. Hell, that’s part of the reason I want open immigration, because it’s the best way to kill the welfare state.

    Finally, culture matters.

    Ah…

    The cultural impacts of massive immigration are starting to show in many areas. Multi-culturalists think the world will somehow just get along, but the reality is that humans just aren’t wired that way.

    I’ve traveled around the world and I never seem to have that problem. Mainly because I try to respect their cultures and not shit on them. Perhaps the problem you’re talking about is one that’s limited to yourself and the people you associate with.

    Humans actually get mad when the see a large foreign population moving in and taking up their resources.

    Not me…sounds like a “you” problem again. And a self-inflicted and rather racist “you” problem at that. Which is your cross to bear, and not anyone else’s.

    They get even more mad when this population demands more free services.

    Get rid of “free” services for everyone and it won’t be an issue. They’re just demanding to be treated like everyone else. We’re the ones who set the example that thievery through taxation and welfare is okay, so if you’ve got a problem with immigrants and welfare look to yourself first.

    And, oddly enough, the get really furious when same foreign population begins demanding everything in their own language and anyone who speaks out is a racist.

    Same argument was raised about the Irish, the Italians, the Jews, the Polish, the Germans and any other substantial non-English speaking immigrant group you’d care to name. And yet we’re still all speaking English. So I don’t consider Hispanics to be any kind of threat.

  • Whatever…

    “Wow, 44 out of 72 people arbitrarily chosen by the government on a list of targeted individuals happen to be Hispanic. I wonder if that’s really reflective of societal crime statistics at-large or if you’re simply some jackass who doesn’t understand the phrase “small sample size”.”

    It’s not a small sample size. If anything, they had to specifically pick the worst offenders from a large pool of possibilities. BTW. In our local schools and neighborhoods the gangs have names like “El Nortes”, “MS-13″ (El Salvador) and “Mexican Mafia”. I’ll note that these are not German immigrant gangs.

    One more thing, when I dial up the local govt. agencies I’m not asked to press 1 for English and 2 for Gaelic. Nor are all of my local schools clamoring for teachers who speak Swedish and Italian for their whining parents who demand bi-lingual education. You’ll notice that they only want bi-lingual education when the other language is Spanish and not something far more useful for our students such as Mandarin or Cantonese.

  • http://at-the-water-cooler.com/blog At The Water Cooler

    I would be for “all” illegals getting licenses if it were to mean that driving is no longer a privilege. People who have any kind of warrant should be allowed to drive if they pass a basic driving test. As, you pointed out, having them drive with a suspended license means they drive without insurance. States take away the privilege to drive for all matter of reasons including because some people on not current on child support payments.

    I don’t believe it would have any impact on safety. I’ve never seen a piece of paper save somebody in an accident; seat belts do. I don’t believe that a piece of paper actually makes somebody a better driver; The cowardly lion was just as brave before he got the paper from Oz as after, He proved himself brave in helping his friends.

    People with driving experience in another country are just as good at driving on either side of the border.

    The International norm is that somebody from another country gets a license in that country, they can also apply for an international license. The license is valid for the US. Mexico also works this way in that you can drive there with a US license but can not get a Mexican license.

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