Thoughts, essays, and writings on Liberty. Written by the heirs of Patrick Henry.

March 5, 2008

Does Ron Paul’s Campaign Really Think He Can Steal The Nomination ?

by Doug Mataconis

Just about a month ago, Brad Warbiany pretty much decimated the logic of the idea that Ron Paul’s supporters could infiltrate the GOP delegate selection process and steal the nomination for their candidate.

The race went on and yesterday, John McCain secured enough pledged delegates to win the Republican nomination.

Heck, when Ron Paul claimed victory in his Congressional race yesterday, he even talked about representing the good people of TX-14 for years to come.

That, it would seem, was that.

But then I ran across this February 22nd post from the Paul campaign’s own blog:

The nominee is decided at the National Convention, by the delegates chosen from state conventions, from those chosen from district and county conventions. It is tempting to assume the race a “lost cause” and abandon it for simpler pursuits, but there are two very important reasons not to: because the assumption is false, and because the assumption debilitates our movement.

Given poll results, media coverage, and the like, it may be hard to believe that Dr. Paul can still win the nomination. But you must understand that the nomination process is not a fixed procedure governed by the Law of the Primary; the Republican Party is a private organization, free to change its rules at any time. It may not be customary, but it certainly cane be done.

If we turn out for the county conventions as we turned out in the streets, we will decide who goes to the state convention. Likewise, a strong turnout at a state convention gives us the ability not only to elect national delegates but to change the state party rules—to unbind the national delegates, for example. It might be a long shot, but this is no different from two months ago.

A great number of disgusted patriots in the Republican Party will not suffer a nominee who refuses to defend the right to bear arms and to acknowledge the need for a strong border. And deep down, they know that every empire is a setting sun. If we don’t show up at the conventions, we’ll be forgotten. But if we turn out, if we prove where the future of the party lies, other Republicans will first accept and soon believe in us.

And the most ardent of Paul’s supporters seem to think that this is a viable strategy even today. See here, here, here, and here, while some people engage in the wonderful pastime of speculating about someone’s death.

So what’s going on here ? Does the campaign really believe the wacko theory about stealing the nomination or are they just stringing people along for donations ?

Update: According to this Texas newspaper, Paul is still holding on to the delusion that the race for the nomination is still going on:

WASHINGTON — President Bush welcomed John McCain to the White House today and hailed him as “the nominee of the Republican Party.”

But while that Rose Garden victory celebration was going on, Texas Republican Rep. Ron Paul — who issued a statement Tuesday night saying he will return to the U.S. House next year — continued a presidential race he now seems to be conceding he cannot win.

“There were 11. Now there are two,” says a posting on Paul’s Web site that shows the crossed-out faces of nine Republican contenders who have dropped out of the presidential race.

In the Tuesday night statement after he won renomination for his U.S. House seat, Paul said, “I have no Democrat opponent in November and will serve another term in Congress where I will continue my battle on behalf of taxpayers.”

“I look forward to representing all of the good people of the 14th district of Texas in Congress in the years to come,” he said.

Despite the comments, Paul spokesman Jesse Benton said Paul “remains in the (presidential) race and will do so as long as his supporters wish it.”

And, apparently, the “supporters” wish it:

“There is a very good chance that John McCain could drop out of the race when enough negative information hits the masses,” a Paul backer said in a Wednesday e-mail. “Ron Paul and his supporters are counting on this. Whether this is realistic or not, only time will tell.”

“McNut didn’t win nothing,” said another Paul supporter in complaining about reports indicating that Paul, in his comment about remaining in the U.S. House, was conceding defeat in the presidential race.

Ugh. Guys, John McCain has been in politics for 28 years. Everybody already knows the negative stuff about him and they’ve made up their mind accordingly. Stop engaging in fantasies and do something that actually helps the fight for freedom.

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  • Shannon

    I think it’s not so much about stealing a nomination as it is about changing the GOP party back to it’s true form of fiscal responsibility and small government. GOP meetings held nation wide reflect some massive change to resolutions being brought up. Ron Paul’s entire platform is being resolved to be the platform of the GOP in local GOP’s nationwide. This will only grow in force and within a few years you will see the first of Ron Paul Republicans begin to take positions in the national GOP confreneces.

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    Shannon,

    That’s very different from what the blog post I linked to is talking about. They’re talking about getting RP supporters to the St. Paul Convention as part of some plan to get RP the nomination.

    It’s a crazy plan, but I can’t understand why the campaign would even promote it. Well, given how they’ve managed things, maybe I’m not surprised at all.

    And, by the way, changing the Republican Party is exactly what I’ve been saying needs to be done for a year now. Focusing on winning an unwinnable nomination fight was, I think, a mistake.

  • Bosco

    What are you, like ten? How the fuck did you trick google into getting into the news results?

  • http://dangerouslyidealistic.blogspot.com/ UCrawford

    Doug,

    I’d say they’re just bilking people for more money, but considering Peter Bagge’s recent take in Reason on his conversations with Ron Paul in New Hampshire I wouldn’t be surprised if Paul actually believed it were a possibility, and that the GOP voters would tolerate it.

    Frankly, I’ve come to the conclusion that Ron Paul’s not entirely in touch with reality…which would go a long way towards explaining why he can’t seem to find co-sponsors for any of his bills, why he thinks pandering to racists is an acceptable campaign strategy, why he can’t stay on topic in debates, why he continually surrounds himself with people who don’t help him, etc., etc., etc. He’s basically just a well-meaning but half-crazy old man who likes to hear himself talk…he might have some good (even great) ideas from time to time, but he has no clue how to bring them about or how to sell them to the public at-large.

    But if the people of TX-14 feels he’s doing fine for them…hey, whatever. He’s certainly not the worst politician ever to serve in Congress and it’s not like he passes a ton of damaging bills. A harmless do-nothing crank in Congress is certainly better than a competent advocate of big government. But I wouldn’t pay much attention to anything his campaign says regarding the White House race anymore…they’re completely full of shit.

  • Tony

    People everywhere, even people who have never even heard of Ron Paul, are beginning to question the Fed, fiat money, our role as policeman of the world, National ID cards, etc. etc. etc.

    Ron Paul in many ways has already won what he set out to do. This movement does not depend on Nov.’s results. People will be talking about Ron Paul long after McCain loses the election.

  • John

    This Ron Paul supporter hopes he can speak at the convention. It would be a symbolic event for the remaining small government Republicans and serve as a new rallying cry when the GOP falls completely from grace in November. The Republican Party will have to redefine itself after McCain (and GOP Congressmen) suffers an embarrassing loss. Ron Paul’s words at the convention would help with the rebuilding of the party’s platform. A nomination is not expected. Even if McCain gets ill the GOP would put Romney back in before accepting Ron Paul.

  • Mark

    The public vote has very little to do with the primaries, its all about delegates. Its obvious you guys don’t understand how it works. You must remember the only ones showing up to be delegates are Ron Paul people, who end up controlling the whole debate at local levels. You should check out what just happened in Texas…

    Does anyone else find it a little weird how Ron Paul still polls at 6-9% WITHOUT even visiting any of the states? When he was visiting primary states, he was still polling 6-9%. ummm fixed?

    Every republican I talk to does NOT like McCain and will vote for someone else if given a choice. Wait till September when the economy craps the bed and people are unemployed even more. Then Ron Paul will be a force to reckon with. As someone stated above, people are waking up.

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    Mark,

    Its obvious you guys don’t understand how it works.

    Oh I understand how it works alright, I just don’t understand how you RP supporters think you could do this and not have the entire GOP, if not the entire country rising up to stop you.

    Ron Paul got the fewest votes of any of the Republican candidates he doesn’t have the right to the nomination.

    Does anyone else find it a little weird how Ron Paul still polls at 6-9% WITHOUT even visiting any of the states? When he was visiting primary states, he was still polling 6-9%. ummm fixed?

    No, it tells me that he’s got a ceiling of support of between 6-9% and that his campaigning, such as it was, didn’t really do anything to rise about that.

  • http://patg.net CaptTofu

    Funny to see “conservatives” who dislike Ron Paul use the liberal “racist” charge. If you charge someone as a racist, then maybe they are, right? Just as the Soviet Union under Stalin.

    Hey Neocons – you are not real conservatives. Your gal is Hillary. She’s hawkish on foreign policy but a big government liberal. You’ve been muddling the definition of conservativism since 9/11 and hurting the true conservative movement. You can go back to being a democrat now.

    By the way – there is no such thing as “compassionate” conservativism. You either are a conservative or you are not. That’s about as nonsensical a word as “hate crime”. Bush is simply a inarticulate religious socialist. He, Wilson, FDR and LBJ would find a lot in common.

    You should all read “Conscience of a Conservative” and realize just how much neocons are not conservatives.

  • http://dangerouslyidealistic.blogspot.com/ UCrawford

    CaptTofu,

    You should all read “Conscience of a Conservative” and realize just how much neocons are not conservatives.

    You should read “Conscience of a Conservative” and realize that Ron Paul hasn’t got half the brains or integrity of Barry Goldwater.

    By the way, Goldwater helped drum the racists out of the conservative movement because he realized they were a disgrace. What’s your excuse for supporting a man who panders to them?

  • TEFLON RON

    Of course Dr. Paul can still win the Presidency, we all just have to pray that Senator McCain drops dead. Or the other manner would be by obeying the law of the land. The Constitution plainly says that a President must be a natural born citizen. Senator McCain was born in Panama.
    I will pray he obeys the Constitution and for his death, just to be on the safe side.

    Go Ron!

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    Teflon Ron,

    First, I won’t comment on your hope that John McCain dies. I don’t support him and won’t vote for him, but I think it’s incredibly tacky to “pray” that he dies.

    As for the natural born citizen argument, you’d better do some research before relying on that one:

    http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/02/05/the-latest-paulistianian-fantasy/

    http://belowthebeltway.com/2008/02/28/new-york-times-raises-questions-about-mccains-eligibility/

  • NH_GOP

    We can only hope that McCain’s head will explode and his arms will fall off from being so angry and that Ron Paul will be the only man left standing.

    I agree with Teflon Ron — all’s fair in love and war, and this is war!

  • NH_GOP

    UCrawford, eat your words and provide some proof to your stupid comments. There is no evidence that Ron Paul ‘panders’ to any racists.

    If you want to see pandering you should take a look at McCain, Hillary and Obama and their black separatist, Muslim, LaRAZA friends.

    That’s enough racism to scare anyone.

  • NH_GOP

    OH by the way, this congressional race proved that where the elections are not fixed, Ron does very well. Praise Montana…

  • NH_GOP

    UCrawford, please stop stating that “pandering to racists is an acceptable campaign stratetegy” as if it were fact.

    You have no facts to back up this libelous statement so please STFU.

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    NH_GOP,

    How on earth do you explain the fact that the same Congressional District that gave Ron Paul nearly 3/4 of the votes cast for Congressman gave him less than 10 percent of the vote for President ?

    Could it possibly be that his own constituents don’t think he’s qualified to be President ?

  • http://www.libertypapers.org Mark Abraham

    Doug Mataconis, your threadbare propaganda is apparent to all but a few, if any, dupes. The only death Ron Paul supporters should pray for is of obviously slick and bogus websites like this one. Care to tell the people reading your screaming titled (got a lot of hits from the Paul name, eh, creepo?) tripe who your paymaster is?

  • Max

    Doug’s just mad because no ones gonna be visiting the neo liberty papers anymore, hello doug Ron Paul is the only reason you get traffic here scum

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    Mark,

    Paymaster ? I have none.

    Propaganda ? Oh well I guess anything that questions His Holiness St. Ron Paul is forbidden huh ?

    Max,

    Actually, I’ll be happy to move on to important issues like the D.C. Gun Control case rather than the circus sideshow that is the Ron Paul Presidential campaign.

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  • oilnwater

    when hillary or obama is elected in november, i won’t recognize him/her as the POTUS, but rather as some sort of Vichy cyborg. i already don’t recognize our current POTUS as a legitimate one, so guess there’s nothing new there. Ron Paul is already POTUS in my eyes, i.e. i consider any Texas Straight Talk entry or any of his Congressional speeches as a legitimate address to the state of the union.

  • badmedia

    I think there is still alot of time before people vote and alot can/will happen. Especially in terms of economics.

    Besides, I think everyone knows it will take more than a president to change things. And thats why getting the message out is so much more important than the election. Get someone like Ron Paul elected will come after the work IMO.

    I’ve held the same views as Ron Paul since 9/11. And that was back when like 90% of the people supported this stuff. I found that I just had to give the message, and then with time the person I told it to would continue to see why I was right. And eventually, they change and become supporters. It’s like planting a crop IMO, the seed is being planted now, just add a little water and sun every now and then and flowers will be coming soon.

    So as the economy and things tank, Ron Paul makes more and more sense to people. It would be incredibly dumb of him to back out right now IMO. Things are only getting better for him.

  • Dave

    I just wonder why the few times I’ve been to this site, they are all negative toward Dr. Paul. Kind of a contradiction of the site name and Ron Paul.

  • Lisa Zack

    Doug Mataconis: I get it. You don’t respect Dr. Paul or his supporters. Fair enough. But why the attacks? Move on. Do you really think someone who supports the good doctor is going to change their view based upon a reading of yours? Yours are the kinds of postings that turn people off the internet.

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    Badmedia,

    as the economy and things tank, Ron Paul makes more and more sense to people. It would be incredibly dumb of him to back out right now IMO. Things are only getting better for him.

    I’ve heard this from a lot of people and I don’t understand the logic of.

    Let’s just look at how this election has gone. Except for a few caucus states where his mobilized supporters had an impact, Ron Paul has not gotten above 10% in any of these contests. At the same time, unprecedented numbers of people are voting for two of the most statists candidates that have run for President in a long time, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. Democratic turnout in primaries is crushing Republican turnout, and makes the number of votes RP has gotten look small by comparison.

    Let’s say the economy does “tank” as you suggest.

    What makes you think that people will all of a sudden flock to a small-government laissez faire candidate ?

    They’re not going to. They’re going to flock to the candidate(s) telling them that the government will be able to help them with their problems — whether its a lost job, a house in foreclosure, unpaid medical bills, or the cost of education — they are not going to spend much time listening to a guy whose answer involves long lectures on Austrian economics.

    Put simply, if the American people aren’t flocking to Ron Paul when times are good they aren’t going to flock to him when times are bad.

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    Lisa,

    Why ? Because I think we are at the point where the campaign is hoodwinking people.

    There are things that can be done to fight for liberty. Continuing to hang on to a doomed Presidential campaign is not one of them.

  • Lisa Zack

    Doug: Hoodwinking how?

  • http://dangerouslyidealistic.blogspot.com/ UCrawford

    NH_GOP,

    There is no evidence that Ron Paul ‘panders’ to any racists.

    First of all, you’re wrong:

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/10/paul.newsletters/

    http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/02/25/apparently-the-ron-paul-newsletters-werent-an-anomaly/#comments

    If you want to see pandering you should take a look at McCain, Hillary and Obama and their black separatist, Muslim, LaRAZA friends.

    Second of all, this comment by yourself is without substantiation and clearly demonstrates you as one of the little problem children I was talking about so I give a shit whether or not you’re unhappy with my remarks. Your candidate is a race-baiter, he’s engaged in it on multiple occasions over 20 years, so I’m happy he got beat in the presidential election.

    OH by the way, this congressional race proved that where the elections are not fixed, Ron does very well. Praise Montana…

    Actually, the only thing it tells me is that the people in Ron Paul’s district (in Texas, not Montana) like the pork he brings home and don’t particularly care that he doesn’t do a hell of a lot except babble on the floor and sponsor pointless bills that haven’t got a hope of being passed because after 12 years he still hasn’t figure out how to work the legislative process. But, as I said, whatever, so long as they’re happy and he doesn’t cause problems for anyone else I could care less if they keep re-electing him.

    You have no facts to back up this libelous statement so please STFU.

    Well, I’ve already shown you the inaccuracy in your first remark, and if my comments make you so unhappy I guess you can feel free to take the issue up with Brad (who owns this blog) in the hopes of getting me banned or if that doesn’t work you can take yourself elsewhere so you don’t have to be bothered by other people using their right of free speech to say things you don’t like…just like all the other Paulestinian hypocrites who can’t handle people who disagree with them.

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    Lisa,

    By feeding into this absurd idea that there’s a way to win the nomination at this point and asking people to continue donating $$$

  • http://dangerouslyidealistic.blogspot.com/ UCrawford

    Max,

    Doug’s just mad because no ones gonna be visiting the neo liberty papers anymore, hello doug Ron Paul is the only reason you get traffic here scum

    Gosh, that’ll definitely shut Doug down. You know what else would work? Threatening never to comment here again like you did the last dozen times Doug wrote a piece you were unhappy with. That was definitely an effective tactic…and we were honestly shitting ourselves that you might not return and bless us with your nuanced insight and arbitrary use of capitalization.

  • Lisa Zack

    Well, maybe I’m missing something here, but I get a lot of alerts and emails from Ron Paul supporters and the campaign and yet I have not been asked to continue donating money. I’m wondering to what use he will put the remaining money he’s received, which I understand to be around $6 million or more. I have contributed to his campaign in the early days and feel good about doing so, but will not continue to contribute unless and until I hear of a solid strategy that makes sense to me. I would guess many supporters are of like mind.

    One thing I think it’s important for people to keep in mind is that, regardless of how probable it would be for him to win the nomination, looking near impossible at this juncture, at least recognize the passion he has inspired and stop intimating that his supporters are somehow crazy people. I’m not crazy and the wonderful people I’ve met through my local meet.up are not crazy. We are disillusioned and disgusted with our government, and that includes both parties. Supporting either one is an unpalatable option, but it doesn’t mean we’re cranks. There’s an awful lot of name calling going on here that doesn’t need to happen.

    People who take the time to educate themselves and to communicate their views with others are the ones who will change the country, as it surely needs to be changed, and it does little good to fight among ourselves. I do not understand the vitriol I see on the internet, and am especially surprised to see it on this website. Courtesy can accomplish miracles.

  • Akston

    I don’t come to the Liberty Papers often anymore. I’ve been too busy. Speaking as a State Delegate for Ron Paul who will be running for National, maybe I can add a couple points.

    First, John McCain may well become the Republican Party’s nominee. This will not be decided in the press. It will not be decided in polls of primary and caucus attendees, or polls of “likely voters”. It will not be decided by extrapolating “Presidential Preference Polls” and guessing how many delegate votes that might mean. It will not be decided by CNN or AP or Fox News or The Liberty Papers.

    National Delegates will elect the nominee in Minnesota in September.

    John McCain does not “have” 1191 delegates. John McCain is estimated to receive at least 1191 delegate votes at the national convention. That may well be true, but remains to be seen.

    There is a set number of “hard delegates” which are pledged to McCain for the first round. Many other delegates may vote for him as well, though he is hardly a real conservative’s choice. Many Republicans don’t relish the idea of voting for him, given his history.

    If John McCain does not get a majority of the delegate votes (1191) in round one, many delegates will be unbound for round two. Those delegates from “winner take all” states may well decide that Ron Paul represents conservative principles closer to their original candidate of choice (Romney, Thompson, Huckabee, etc). These delegates will be free to vote their conscience.

    All I can say for sure is that I’ll continue to move up the ranks of the Republican Party as far as I’m able, espousing what the founding fathers, Robert A. Taft, Barry Goldwater, Ronald Reagan, and Ron Paul have stood for: constitutionally limited government, free market economics, sound currency, and a strong but humble foreign policy.

    And I’ll vote for whichever candidate also supports these principles.

  • http://www.libertarium.us Ryan Prasad

    I think Doug’s assessment is a fair one that I can agree with.

    In my mind however, Paul himself knows that the asphalt ended miles ago. By appearing to stay in the race, if he persuades just one person to the cause of liberty, the effort was worth it.

    The campaign may end, but the war for minds is just beginning.

  • Lisa Zack

    Great comments by Akston. I learned something about the delegate process by reading them and I found them thoughtful and optimistic. I sincerely hope that more people like you become involved at the local level and return the party to its roots. Thank you.

  • C. Bentley

    UCrawford
    your utmost stupidity is the engine behind the fall of the dollar. You need a special little lesson, you neocon. I’m afraid it is too late before this country goes bankrupt.
    You are actually jealous of the amazing grassroot supports Ron Paul gets.

  • http://www.libertypapers.org Mark Abraham

    For the uninformed — the delegate process costs money — people who volunteer their time to be delegates also pay fees out of their own pockets to their local and state Republican parties — not the Paul campaign. The delegate campaign requires little to no money. So much for the phony argument that the Paul campaign is trying to squeeze donations with irrational promises. The process only relates to those motivated enough to participate in rebuilding after the damage done to the Republican party by neocon corporate socialists.

    Dougie=paid propagandist

    Anyone wanting to continue the tour of the big government paid propaganda website zoo can view the “liberal” other side of Dougie’s greasy coin at the wonkette (same paymaster?)

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    Bentley,

    Amazing grassroots support ?

    Yea, it was pretty amazing that a grassroots that could raise $ 20 million in one quarter couldn’t even win one state for their candidate.

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    Mark,

    You are, quite simply, lying.

    I have no connection with Wonkette other than the fact that they have linked to a few of my posts in the past.

    Tell the truth or, quite frankly, shut up.

  • C. Bentley

    Doug.
    Understand that NOBODY knew about Ron Paul. Most people asked me Ron Paul who? And when you see the blackout in the media…
    RP campaign failed to buy its way out of the blackout. Yes. But seeing how people continuously try to smear Ron Paul. The blackout was inevitable.
    So yea it certainly is amazing when RP people show up to be delegates!!! This is great participative democracy and SHEEP stay home houarrraa!!

  • mketcher

    As usual, you tend to mischaracterize Ron Paul’s supporters (of which I’m one). You’re article takes a few quotations from some web sites and apply them to all the thousands of Ron Paul supporters, painting them as people who are somehow disconnected from reality. It’s insulting those of us who have supported Ron Paul

    Although the death of McCain and the possibility of a brokered convention are remote — and McCain will likely be the Republican nominee — most are not betting on that long-shot possibility The reason most Ron Paul’s supporters hold on and continue to support and work for the campaign is:

    #1). They realize that they’re spreading the word of freedom and continuing the fight for liberty — they know their actions could have a huge impact in the coming years. This year, thanks to Ron Paul, many seeds of liberty are being planted, particularly among the young, who would not ordinarly be exposed to the ideas of Rothbard, von Mises, Hazlitt and others. True libertarian web sites like http://www.lewrockwell.com are exploding with new readers.

    #2). This may be the last chance to save freedom in the U.S. The slide to facism over the last few years has been tremendous — and no one on the political scene (Democratic or Republican — and even many libertarians) is fighting against it. Ron Paul stands virtually alone, at least among national political leaders, in trying to turn the tide. Ron Paul is the only place that freedom-loving people have to go.

    #3.) This may be the last chance to save the U.S. economy. The economy is headed for decades of disaster, unless major structural change is enacted soon. Only Ron Paul offers any sensible alternative.

    #4.) This may be the last chance to end the perpetual war. None of the other candidates is taking an anti-war stance.

    #5.) There’s the possibility of a third party run by Dr. Paul. He may have good strategic reasons for staying in as a Republican and discouraging any talk of going third party just yet. As a third party candidate, he would be able to tap into a huge grassroots base, never before seen in U.S. presidential politics and a massive fundraising machine. The LP doesn’t have it’s convention for two months. That gives Dr. Paul lots of time to decide on whether or not he wants to go third party.

  • Sean

    UCrawford,

    “You should read “Conscience of a Conservative” and realize that Ron Paul hasn’t got half the brains or integrity of Barry Goldwater.

    By the way, Goldwater helped drum the racists out of the conservative movement because he realized they were a disgrace. What’s your excuse for supporting a man who panders to them?”

    Funny thing, Barry Goldwater Jr. endorsed Ron Paul. If Ron Paul didn’t have half the brains or integrity of Barry Goldwater, tell me why his son endorsed him!!!

  • Tom

    “The race went on and yesterday, John McCain secured enough pledged delegates to win the Republican nomination.”

    Wow, you can’t even get your facts straight. He does not have 1191 Pledged delegates. It’s more like 800.

    It’s ok I forgive you, you are simply stating your case as to why you should be a MSM reporter. “Say it on a MSM channel and it is true”

    You sir or madam lose my respect, but the good news for you is they may call you from FAUX news to do a blog report.

  • http://patg.net CaptTofu

    Ucrawford,

    Instead of the argumentum ad hominem fallacy you use against Ron Paul, why not back up what you say with some factual premises for a valid argument? Why did the Houston chapter of the NAACP state Ron Paul is not a racist. I back up what I say with facts:

    http://www.truveo.com/NAACP-President-Ron-Paul-Is-Not-A-Racist-Radio/id/2784810844

    If you read Barry Goldwater’s auto-biography, there were people who also called him a racist for not supporting the 1964 civil rights act with the same lack of logic you display here when in fact it was due to his disagreement with the federal government mandating that a landlord can’t deny a renter.

    Another neocon, Rudy Giuliani on Barry Goldwater:

    “incompetent, confused and sometimes idiotic man,”

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1815610/posts

    On top of which Barry Goldwater Jr. endorsed Ron Paul.

    Maybe if you would like to find a candidate who has used racist language, you might want to ask John McCain about his hatred of “Gooks”

    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/hongop.shtml

  • http://theothersideofkim.com Jmarsh

    I actually got a call from the campaign about two hours ago (5 March, 1800 EST), asking me to be a delegate for him at the “convention” in Georgia. About all I got from the call was I needed to be somewhere “TBD” on 19 April at 9am. I was too caught offguard to even register the “whatjustadamnminute WTF?” comment that spun through my brain 15 seconds after the call was over.

  • jb

    ITs all about putting delegates at the convention to vote on the platform, and perhaps to insist that Ron Paul get a decent time for a speech, and applause.

    Only the odd truther supporter really is unrealistic enough to think that RP will win the nomination. the rest of us are off working on future projects, considering candidates for the general election (Bob Barr’s name has been bandied around). The RP forumns only really have the truthers left, and they never go away.

  • http://www.libertypapers.org Mark Abraham

    Doug, I had no idea that the “wankette”, as a british blog so aptly put it, actually linked to your site — thanks for the revelation — of course, your thin-skin responses are more telling than any comment I could make here — but seriously, how much are you being paid to run this site, and by whom?

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    Mark,

    Aside from the $ 10 million I get from David Rockefeller that allows me to blog from a mansion overlooking the beaches of Kauai, nothing.

    Oops, I wasn’t supposed to mention that, David’s gonna be pissed.

    Seriously, can’t you just accept that some of us have opinions different from you without ascribing nefarious motives ?

  • LibertyNH

    Doug writes:

    “Could it possibly be that his own constituents don’t think he’s qualified to be President?”

    could be, but it doesn’t make sense (to me) that anyone would vote for an anti-war/anti-amnesty candidate as their representative while voting for a pro-war/pro-amnesty neocon for president on the same ballot. yet according to the election results the majority of republican voters in TX-14 did just that…

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    LibertyNH,

    Nobody said that voters behaved in ways that made sense.

  • http://www.libertypapers.org Mark Abraham

    Doug, glad to hear you have a sense of humor!

    EVERYONE INTERESTED IN HEARING WHAT THE MAN HIMSELF HAS TO SAY (RON PAUL, THAT IS), SHOULD LISTEN TO HIM HERE LIVE AT 9 CENTRAL TIME (38 MINUTES and counting FROM NOW):

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/ronpaul2008

  • UCrawford

    Sean,

    Funny thing, Barry Goldwater Jr. endorsed Ron Paul. If Ron Paul didn’t have half the brains or integrity of Barry Goldwater, tell me why his son endorsed him!!!

    Why the hell would I care? Nothing personal against Barry Goldwater, Jr., because he seems like a decent sort, but frankly I’m not impressed with the endorsement of the son of a prominent libertarian for the same reason that I wouldn’t be impressed with getting front row seats to a Frank Sinatra, Jr. concert.

  • UCrawford

    CaptTofu,

    Instead of the argumentum ad hominem fallacy you use against Ron Paul, why not back up what you say with some factual premises for a valid argument?

    Look, you fucking idiot, I didn’t call Ron Paul a racist, I called him a race-baiter and someone who panders to racists…which he is and which he does…so it isn’t an ad hominem attack when a fact is stated. You want proof? His fucking newsletters and that nice little mailer of the Mexican gang member are proof enough and I posted links. If you aren’t capable of reading for comprehension perhaps you should find a hobby other than arguing on blogs with people who can.

    If you read Barry Goldwater’s auto-biography, there were people who also called him a racist for not supporting the 1964 civil rights act with the same lack of logic you display here when in fact it was due to his disagreement with the federal government mandating that a landlord can’t deny a renter.

    I love how Paulestinians always try to cover for their candidate by citing an irrelevant point in the hopes that no one will notice their fallacious red herring. It warms my cold little heart to see my contempt for them validated.

    I recognize that Goldwater wasn’t a racist because he took a states’ rights position (although he was wrong about desegregation)…that’s why I never called Goldwater a racist. I called Ron Paul a race-baiter because that’s what he is because those are his campaign tactics. Goldwater’s position on civil rights in the 1960s has got nothing to do with Ron Paul’s shady campaign tactics.

    Another neocon, Rudy Giuliani on Barry Goldwater:

    I don’t give a damn what Guiliani had to say about Barry Goldwater because I wasn’t talking about Guiliani or ragging on Goldwater, I was talking about Ron Paul. Nice attempt to switch subjects to cover for your race-baiting candidate though.

    On top of which Barry Goldwater Jr. endorsed Ron Paul.

    Ron Reagan Jr endorsed John Kerry in 2004…and he was still a rotten presidential candidate. So what?

    Maybe if you would like to find a candidate who has used racist language, you might want to ask John McCain about his hatred of “Gooks”

    I’m not planning on voting for McCain either, but considering the context of the remarks (used in response to him being tortured nearly to death by the Vietnamese while he was a POW) I’m willing to write it off. What was your candidate’s excuse? Did he call black people animals and insinuate that Mexican immigrants were all welfare-stealing gang members because he was tortured in one of their prison camps?

  • UCrawford

    And it’s laughable how Paulestinians love to compare their guy to Goldwater despite the fact that Goldwater was a competent campaigner and actually won his party’s nomination while Ron Paul couldn’t assemble a staff capable of winning him a single state.

    I guess by those standards I could claim that I’m the next H.L. Mencken because I write stuff every once in awhile and insult stupid people.

  • http://dangerouslyidealistic.blogspot.com/ UCrawford

    LibertyNH,

    but it doesn’t make sense (to me) that anyone would vote for an anti-war/anti-amnesty candidate as their representative while voting for a pro-war/pro-amnesty neocon for president on the same ballot.

    I would respectfully submit that the skill requirements for a Congressman are very different than those for a president and perhaps the reason that his constituents didn’t vote for him for president is because they figured he just didn’t have what it took. Keep in mind that the people of Texas also didn’t vote for him when he ran for the Senate either.

    Ideology’s important, but it’s not the only important factor in determining whether a candidate is right for the office he’s running for.

  • http://www.thelibertypapers.org/author/tarran/ tarran

    A couple of observations:

    1. If you are convinced that the U.S. is facing a economic disaster unless your policies are implemented, then there is honor in continuing the fight no matter how vanishingly small your chances of success are. Ron Paul might be grasping at straws, but I am not dismayed by his staying in the race. The incitements to xenophobia, on the other hand do dismay me.
    2. Those of us who observe that Ron Paul makes disastrously bad personnel decisions, or who think that he would make a bad president are not arguing that John McCain would make a good president, or that we would prefer McCain to Ron Paul. Speaking for myself, I find a John McCain presidency appalling. In fact, I can flat out guarantee that barring meteors striking both the Democrat and Republican conventions, the next President of the U.S. will be a disaster. Personally, I like many of Ron Paul’s policy prescriptions. If I though the had the competence to implement them, I would be an enthusiastic supporter. In fact, if he had the prerequisite competence, he would be doing alot better in the polls than he is. But as UCrawford’s absolutely disheartening experiences with Ron Paul’s staff demonstrated, Ron Paul and his staff fumbled a great opportunity, and there is no question in my mind that were he to become president, we would see the same amateurish level of fumbles and miscalculations accompanied by a fairly high degree of corruption as happened during Ron Paul’s run as the Libertarian presidential candidate – if I recall correctly at least one member of his staff ended up convicted of felonious embezzlement and was imprisoned.
  • http://patg.net CaptTofu

    “Look, you fucking idiot, I didn’t call Ron Paul a racist, I called him a race-baiter and someone who panders to racists…which he is and which he does…so it isn’t an ad hominem attack when a fact is stated. You want proof? His fucking newsletters and that nice little mailer of the Mexican gang member are proof enough and I posted links. If you aren’t capable of reading for comprehension perhaps you should find a hobby other than arguing on blogs with people who can.”

    UCrawford:

    You seem to always resort to ad hominem. Not worth arguing with you, really. Your only proof is newsletters he said he didn’t write that, yes, he should have reviewed. You can’t cite one thing he has said that’s race-baiting. But I suppose you can reply to this with some more name calling and temper-tantrum cussing.

    You use the same invalid arguments that liberals use of other conservatives (even neocons) that because racists support these conservatives that they, or consevatives in general, are any number of names alluding to racism or race-baiting.

    Also, I’m not arguing with you because you can’t argue. All you do is resort to name-calling and guilt-by-association.

  • http://dangerouslyidealistic.blogspot.com/ UCrawford

    Tarran,

    As much as I personally dislike John McCain and his authoritarian leanings, and as much as I despise parts of Obama’s platform (in particular socialized medicine) and fear the damage he could do with a Democratic Congress, I honestly believe that either would be a better choice for President than Ron Paul for exactly the reasons you’ve just listed. I agree with you that the next President of the United States is going to be bad, regardless of which party they’re from (and I include the Libertarians in that), but I don’t believe that Ron Paul would have been any better (despite clearly having the best policy platform) because I believe he would have staffed his administration with enough crooks, incompetents, racists, and people with their own agendas to do as much damage as the worst of the mainstream candidates.

    Honestly, up until a couple of months before the caucus in my state I wanted to vote for him as much as I’ve ever wanted to vote for any candidate…but after watching his appalling performance in campaigning, his horrific choice of hires, and his disastrous handling of even routine setbacks I simply couldn’t do it. Not with a war on where our successful extrication will require ample skills in all the areas where Ron Paul is lacking.

  • http://dangerouslyidealistic.blogspot.com/ UCrawford

    CaptTofu,

    Your only proof is newsletters he said he didn’t write that, yes, he should have reviewed.

    When a politician puts out a newsletter for 10 years, made over $100K a year from it, and says he has no idea of what was published in it, it means he’s either staggeringly incompetent or he’s lying. Considering the amount of money paid to Ron Paul by that newsletter and considering that the apparent author (identified by multiple sources) of said newsletters is still a prominent advisor to the Paul campaign I’d say that it’s probably both.

    As for additional proof, the race-baiting pamphlet with the Mexican gang member was also pointed out to you…twice. But apparently you didn’t notice that (despite quoting it), which indicates that you yourself are either a fool who can’t read for comprehension or a liar who never bothered to read the full rebuttal before making an accusation. Either way, it’s a moot point…your candidate lost, your candidate deserved to lose, I’m glad your candidate lost, and you’re not going to convince me that I should be sad that your candidate lost. If he’d had even a handful of the qualities necessary to hold the office of President, he’d have mopped up in this election without needing to resort to xenophobia…but he didn’t, so who the hell cares?

  • GDon

    UCrawford – I know Paul trips your trigger – you seem to have some inordinate hot buttons on the guy.

    So curious – who will you vote for?

  • ricknhouston

    Shannon,

    That’s very different from what the blog post I linked to is talking about. They’re talking about getting RP supporters to the St. Paul Convention as part of some plan to get RP the nomination.

    It’s a crazy plan, but I can’t understand why the campaign would even promote it. Well, given how they’ve managed things, maybe I’m not surprised at all.

    And, by the way, changing the Republican Party is exactly what I’ve been saying needs to be done for a year now. Focusing on winning an unwinnable nomination fight was, I think, a mistake.

    Comment by Doug Mataconis — March 5, 2008 @ 1:12 pm
    *******************************************88
    “First they will laugh …
    Then they will call you names …
    Then they will get mad … and
    Then you win!”
    … Mahatma Ghandi

    First of all to the phonies who purport themselves to be “Patriots”, “Freedom Fighters”, “Protectors of the Constitution” and “Heirs to Patrick Henry” … How dare you smear his name and his memory.

    “No man thinks more highly than I of the patriotism, as well as the abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the House. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve. This is no time for ceremony. The questing…is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part, I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom… and in proportion the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of debate. It is only in this way can we hope to arrive at truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. If I should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of offending you, I should then consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of the Heavens, which I revere above all earthly kings.”

    …”it is natural for man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are more apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of the siren till she transforms us into mere beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who have eyes, yet see not, and, have ears, but hear not, those things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.”…

    …”It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace– but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! …our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!”

    Those, like Ron Pauls, are the words of a true American Patriot. You people have been reduced to money grubbing whores!

  • ricknhouston

    Oh … and just in case you didn’t recognize that … it was Ratrick Henry, March 23, 1775!

  • http://www.thelibertypapers.org/author/tarran/ tarran

    Mr Houston,

    Let me get this straight, you are demanding that we STFU about unpleasant facts concerning Ron Paul and his campaign by quoting passages from Patrick Henry where he condemns those who shield their eyes from unpleasant truths?

    Incidentally, we contributors do not get paid, nor do we sell advertisements. This website is a labor of love and not a source of revenue.

  • Davo

    Stuff the MSM, the message of Freedom and Liberty will continue. The sheeple will wake up at some point.

    The gold standard will be reintroduced before the 2012 election, as the establishment and the privately owned Fed will have screwed themselves if they don’t. Remember this statement.

    Viva the Revolution.

  • GDon

    Hey ricknhouston –

    Bravo.

    “Liberty Papers” is misnomer if ever one existed.

    E.g. – On John McCain- “…and his authoritarian leanings…would be a better choice for President than Ron Paul” – ridiculous.

    What kind of moron calls McCrap’s policies “leanings”? McCain-Feingold? What the @#%@# theft of personal liberty was that? What are we, corporate lap-dogs, with gag mouths? Unbelievable!

    On Obama “…despise parts of his platform..like socialized medicine” What are the parts of his platform we should embrace as “defenders of freedom”? What – he looks good in a suit?

    Ron Paul is a ace-baiting, poopy-face…blah, blah,blah…geesus – get over it!

    To claim that one can believe in his policies, but not his presidential “qualities” – what???

    The reality is that Ron Paul has done more to advance the cause of liberty in America, than any politician in the last 50 years, imperfect as he is.

    Here’s the deal – Libertarians must all be addicted to political & philosophical masturbation – at the end of it all they’ve only pleased themselves, but achieved nothing.

  • GDon

    Tarran

    Yeah, you found parts of the 20 yr old newsletters “unpleasant”…

    What are you, a 5 year old girl?

    After reading the papers, they were full of provacative opinion – so what? So is this blog.

    Will everything ever written on this blog exempt the writers from running for office?

    Commentors seem to be a bunch of scab pickers – at the expense of supporting and advancing the cause of liberty.

    This scab picking obsession is what should exempt this blog from honest use of “Liberty Papers”.

  • tim, minnesota

    Last night in Minnesota, we had our 50-A district convention. Ron Paul received four of ten committed (of which I am one) state delegates with possible additional four supporting Ron Paul. Additionally, Ron Paul has five of twenty congressional district committed delegates with a possible additional five supporting Ron Paul. Regarding the congressional district alternates, Ron Paul has eight committed delegates and four supporting delegates. These results in Republican Party politics are quietly occurring across the country. As another Bolger above said, the issue is delegates and McCain does not have any ware near the press reporting 1192 delegates.

    People in caucus states, including Minnesota, voted for president then left the caucus not realizing the process of electing delegates and staying engaged to support their candidates. Ron Paul voters have stayed around the Republican caucus process, delegates are moving up the layers of various conventions around the country becoming a stronger force within the Republican Party.

    I continually meet people who have never heard of Ron Paul in Minnesota and become supporters after they read up on his positions at http://www.ronpaul2008.com. In Minnesota, these new supporters are not eligible for delegate positions, but are part of the growing Ron Paul movement. The current presidential election process has been in place for many years within the Republican Party. This year the Ron Paul supporters are making full use of the Republican nominating system. We will see you all in St. Paul this summer. Numerically Ron Paul is far from nomination elimination.

  • GDon

    Tim, minnesota –

    But why are we wasting our time on the GOP?

    The mainstream GOP despises Ron Paul – I mean absolutely @#$@#$ing hates him, because he reminds them, direct to their faces, how misguided their policies are.

    A bit like the devilish priestess in “The Omen”, the forks are sticking out of their devilish little MSM heads, but they would need to die before letting Ron Paul and group take over the GOP.

    So why @#$#@ with that – trying to wrestle control away from that group?

    The GOP is a worthless shell, fully addicted to status quo

    At the instant that Ron Paul and his delegates get booted out of the Convention, he should already have in place the 3rd Party plan.

  • http://www.thelibertypapers.org/author/tarran/ tarran

    No Gdon, the unpleasant fact is not what was written in the newsletters but what they say about Ron Paul’s judgment and abilities. Essentially Ron Paul is a crappy executive. Yes, he gives moving speeches. Yes, he has written eloquent essays, and his books on mises.org are generally thoughtful and enjoyable reads.

    However, from his long association with Gary North, his long-term employment or Eric Dondero, his defense that he paid little attention to what was going out in his name, and the chronic under-performance of his staff in the presidential race despite months of warnings and advice from supporters and well-wishers, I have concluded that Ron Paul is not very good at personnel management and thus is lousy executive material.

    This is not to say that he is a bad person. Far from it – executive skill is not something everyone has, it’s a skill that is partly learned and partly based on native ability, like being so good at a sport that you can do it professionally.

    But history is replete with cautionary tales of guys who were bad executives with good intentions who ruined countries. Thus, I think Ron Paul’s presidency would be bad. I think john McCain’s presidency will be worse, if it makes you feel any better.

  • Dave

    To the comment about people rising against Paul if he won the nomination because he somehow, “cheated.” Cute.

    Have fun with your diebold machines and voters who vote for McCain because he’s the anti-war candidate.

    This isn’t a democracy; it’s a republic. It gives greater accord to the will of the informed, passionate, and motivated. After all, what was the purpose of the electoral college? It was put in place to prevent the people from electing a tyrant.
    Ron Paul’s campaign has not been run perfectly, but he only had his money come in in mid november. He had to put things together awfully quickly. There was corruption, but there were many moles looking to undercut his influence.
    The newsletter issue has been rehased to death. The comments in context are not as bad as the snipped quotes would have you believe, and no one has produced any evidence that the supposed mexican gang member card was anything more then an internet photoshop job. Paul’s targeted lit is much more substantial. Also, for anyone who distributed it or recieved it, the proportions don’t match. They’re called slim jims, and they look nothing like that amateurish assembly made by Kirchik, a man who admitted on the log cabin republicans blog that he was simply trying to rile up ron paul supporters to get web hits. Paul is not a xenophobe, in fact, he used to be in favor of open borders. He is oppossed to them know because he correctly identifies the open border policy as a component of the drive towards a North American Union.
    Anyone who has been paying attention to the news can see that all Paul’s concerns are coming into fruition rapidly.

    I would like to leave you with a quote, as we ron paul supporters are so fond of:
    “Courage is not a man with a gun in his hand. It’s knowing you’re licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what. You rarely win, but sometimes you do.”
    – spoken by Atticus Finch, by Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird

    “The one thing that doesn’t abide by majority rule is a person’s conscience.”
    – spoken by Atticus Finch, by Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird

  • tim, minnesota

    Perhaps a 3rd party plan at the appropriate time.

    The Minnesota state chair has been speaking to the Minnesota congressional conventions, including mine last night in support of McCain. He has been booed at previous conventions in the last couple of weeks. I listened last night and prepared to call him for supporting McCain if he said something during his speech to the convention. He said nothing of McCain, as he is to be a neutral republican supporter. Perhaps he is discovering that in Minnesota we are not following status quoe.

    I knew nothing of the required organization necessary for electing a presidential candidate.

    As I continue my journey up the Republican process, I meet two types of party regulars. One group is party hacks the blind following the blind. This group of McCain man daters represents the Ron Paul land mines we have to keep a watch for. The second group is the real Republican Party folks who genuinely care about our country and issues. This group is so excited, supporting, and welcoming Ron Paul folks, knowing the party needs changing. However, they are within the organizational structure, unable to make change.

    The mainly Ron Paul group of newly involved folks are vocal, forceful, have nothing to lose and when required challenge the status quoe. As an example: challenging the party platform positions and the Republican Party attempt to enlist compliance of support for McCain.

    Not a chance is McCain getting support in my district, state. We are in a battle in Minnesota against the blind corruption of the Republican Party, but I see great things happening. The truth is Ron Paul would really be a know body if not running as a republican. So for now Ron Paul is relying on the necessary existing political structure within the Republican Party. Perhaps as delegates move up the process and political environments change Ron Paul may find greater delegate support in places to provide Ron the nomination.

  • GDon

    Tarran –

    I think the “judgement” of Ron Paul is FAR more reflected in his philosophy, expressed in his votes, personal actions, and (yes) personal books and issue writings, than the ghost-written pages published while he was focused more on his medical practice.

    As for America needing an “executive” – that kind of mindless, pragmatic non-principled “royalty” view, is exactly what we do NOT need.

    It is that view which has given us everything from FDR, to Richard Nixon, to George Bush. Hell, FDR was a GREAT executive, but a @$%@#$ of choice to lead America by the philosophical light of liberty and freedom.

    Same for Ron Paul’s “personnel management” – what has been lacking in our decaying empire is philosophical discretion, and a reflection of national action against the Constitution – not some Harvard Business School model of “executive” elitism.

    And frankly, history if much MORE replete of really “effective” Executives who have destroyed countries and people, because the exact same skill set also made them great Tyrants and Desposts (Stalin, Hitler, Lincoln, and MORE….),

    And this was precisely because they had no philosophical underpinnings, rather than poor “executive” qualities.

    Our choices over the last 150 years, have been ridiculously empty of those modeled after our Founding Fathers, and instead WERE great “executives”.

    Ron Paul is NOT a George Washington executive (thankfully), but IS more of a Thomas Jefferson consistent thinker, and precisely what America needs.

  • tim, minnesota

    “The truth is Ron Paul would really be a know body if not running as a…”

    Correction: replace “know body” with “no-body”

    “…process and political environments change Ron Paul may find greater delegate…”

    Addition: political environments ad “such as McCain experiencing Republican fallout”

    Thanks

  • C. Bentley

    We Ron Paul Republicans are defending the Republican Party and true conservative principles.

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    We Ron Paul Republicans are defending the Republican Party and true conservative principles.

    By attempting to thwart the will of the majority of people who voted in Republican primaries this year

  • Pingback: The Liberty Papers »Blog Archive » Thursday Open Thread — What’s Left For Paul Supporters?

  • C. Bentley

    No Doug. By legally using the rules of the GOP, a private creature. We are hopefully a Republic. And We will defend the roots of liberty in our country. A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapse over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
    You are in a losing fight. Ideas are bulletproof Doug. I challenge you to recruit delegates steely in their resolve such as Ron Paul’s. I challenge you to find such delegates for McCain.

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    Bentley,

    Two things:

    1. If you think the GOP is going to sit aside and let you do this, you’re simply out of your mind.

    2. If you think that a guy who never got above 10% in the primaries could somehow pull this off you’re in a dream land.

  • Jon in Canada

    Personally, I think that the biggest fear McCain’s campaign handlers have is that he makes another “off the cuff” remark, (see Bomb Iran), or someone makes him lose his temper.

    Either way, RP figures why not stick around? It’s McCain’s to lose.

    Good Luck

  • C. Bentley

    only a minority of colonists among a sea of sheeps decided to rebel against King George.

    I have a dream. yes. Funny but you can’t do anything about that. You are powerless. Join Us or Stand Aside.

  • Darel

    Doug,

    I didn’t realize anyone gave a dam what you had to say…. I suppose some new people have started to read your site if so as notice to new readers at the liberty papers Doug has confimed he is a liar and never supported Ron Paul so if you think Doug cares about the plans of Paul then you folks are wasting you time….

    Move on folks Doug is simply a liar.

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    Darel,

    To be blunt about it, the election results to date are proving that the public doesn’t give a damn what Ron Paul has to say.

    They want big government, and they’re going to get it.

  • C. Bentley

    Darel, ad hominem attacks calling someone a liar, without a proof brings no legitimacy.
    I understand he does not support Ron Paul. I’m ready to believe he is a liar if you bring reliable evidence.
    A “nice photoshoped little mailer of a Mexican gang member” is no proof
    Other than that Doug seems articulate, but a vicious hate of Ron Paul dwells in his heart, blinding his soul from the truth.

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    Darel,

    As far as that mailer goes, the Paul campaign never denied that they sent it.

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    Bentley,

    I don’t hate Ron Paul. Except for the Boston Red Sox I try not to hate anyone ;)

    I just happen to think that his campaign was badly run, attracted the whacko fringe, and did nothing to advance the cause of liberty.

  • UCrawford

    GDon,

    So curious – who will you vote for?

    Honestly, I don’t know. I was leaning towards not voting at all but now I’m thinking about voting for McCain, not because I think he’d be good (because I know he won’t) but because he’s fairly pro-free trade, he’s generally a deficit hawk and he’ll have a hostile Democratic Congress so it’s unlikely any of his more authoritarian stuff will get passed. I can handle gridlock with lots of vetos.

    I also suspect that McCain will end up pulling a Nixon and reversing himself on the Iraq war because it’s become very evident that victory in any meaningful sense isn’t possible. He’s not married to it like Bush is and McCain is also intellectually capable of realizing that the Iraq war can’t be won…Bush wasn’t. I also admit that I could be completely wrong about that too, so that shouldn’t be taken as an assessment that I think McCain will end the war…just that I think that it’s possible he might reverse his stance on it.

  • UCrawford

    GDon,

    Of course, it’s still about 50-50 that I won’t vote for anyone because I don’t consider any of the candidates in this field remotely acceptable and I don’t believe that freedom stems from government anyway.

  • UCrawford

    Doug,

    They want big government, and they’re going to get it.

    I don’t believe that’s the case so much as I believe that they didn’t want Ron Paul. Considering all the problems with him that have been discussed both here and elsewhere, I can’t really blame them. Almost 10% of the vote, however, for a candidate who ran a campaign that inefficient is quite impressive, which tells me there’s a market for that message so long as we find a better messenger.

  • C. Bentley

    “As far as that mailer goes, the Paul campaign never denied that they sent it.”

    I was banned on hannity forums for calling out the stupidity of such statements.

    One guy was stating Obama was a nazi because the guy’s huge ego never heard Obama himself condemn the holocaust. Utmost stupidity that will bring bankruptcy to America.

    Doug. I can create a mexican mailer behind your back and start shouting you are a racist because I never heard you denying sending it?

    be intellectually honest or be gone.

  • C. Bentley

    “I just happen to think that his campaign was badly run”, I agree to some extent. But throwing the baby with bath’s water is irresponsibile. “Attracted the whacko fringe”: his message of small government, freedom attracked fringes of all horizons.
    That’s not his fault and besides, You should be thankful of that. They will get free education.
    “He did nothing to advance the cause of liberty?” Go see how many meetups Ron Paul has. I was a neo-con like so many, now I’m a Ron Paul Republican fighting for small gov and freedom. And I’m not alone seeing answers on this forum.

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    Bentley,

    And I can create a fake $ 100 bill with Frank Sinatra’s picture in place of Ben Franklin’s.

    So what ?

    That doesn’t go to the issue of whether the mailer is real or not.

    It certainly looked real. And it was consistent with at least one anti-immigrant television commercial Paul had run earlier in the campaign.

    I sent an email directly to the campaign asking for a response to the mailer. They never answered me. And I know they haven’t answered other bloggers who did the same thing.

    Their silence can be interpreted as an admission.

  • UCrawford

    C. Bentley,

    I can create a mexican mailer behind your back and start shouting you are a racist because I never heard you denying sending it?

    Actually, Doug asked the campaign directly if they sent it and they refused to respond…as he noted on the blog he wrote about the mailer. Since that mailer was highlighted in a story in a national publication and the Paul campaign has yet to respond to it, I’d say it’s a pretty clear indication they did send it out.

    be intellectually honest or be gone.

    The funniest thing about Paulestinians is how they like to go onto blogs they don’t own and start insulting people and ordering them around, as if anyone cared what they thought and the world bowed to their will. It’s kind of endearing, in an “I’m not crazy, I really am Napolean” kind of way.

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    UCrawford,

    I don’t believe that’s the case so much as I believe that they didn’t want Ron Paul. Considering all the problems with him that have been discussed both here and elsewhere, I can’t really blame them. Almost 10% of the vote, however, for a candidate who ran a campaign that inefficient is quite impressive, which tells me there’s a market for that message so long as we find a better messenger

    Perhaps, I guess I’m in a pessimistic mood about this whole thing right now.

  • UCrawford

    C. Bentley,

    I was a neo-con like so many, now I’m a Ron Paul Republican fighting for small gov and freedom.

    Claiming that you’re smarter because you’ve jumped from worshipping a bad ideology to worshipping a bad candidate isn’t actually a sign of progress that will sell anyone who isn’t already a Paul supporter.

  • UCrawford

    Doug,

    Perhaps, I guess I’m in a pessimistic mood about this whole thing right now.

    I was a little bummed that the Paul campaign turned out to be such a dog, but I realize that losses are inevitable in politics and that bad candidates happen, so I got over it. :)

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  • C. Bentley

    Doug,
    I can understand your frustration about the campaign not answering your call. Campaign could have been more efficient.
    But I don’t see the reason to get so upset for a dubious mailer, especially when there is a high chance that it is a smear.
    Ron Paul is not the perfect candidate. No one ever will be. Fate gave us Ron Paul and we don’t have any better today.
    You really seem to have a hidden agenda. Power games to control the liberty movement? How shamefull. If you think the LP will make a breakthrough. I wish you luck.
    Because Who can best Ron Paul saying “thank you for inviting me to your revolution”
    I know there are flaws in his platform and instead of throwing the baby away, I will educate the baby.

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    Bentley,

    If that mailer is real, then the Paul campaign was appealing to some pretty ugly racism.

    I don’t agree with Paul’s immigration positions to begin with, but they are what they are. Sending out a mailer that effectively characterizes every illegal immigrant as a tatooed member of MS-13 like they guy on the mailer is both factually wrong and clearly meant to appeal to the worst in people.

  • C. Bentley

    UCrawford.

    You took my sentence out of context.
    I was refuting the argument that Ron Paul did nothing for the cause of liberty.
    I’m not claiming the upper hand in intelligence.

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    Bentley,

    I have no power games. Heck I don’t even want power.

    I do care about liberty though and it bothers me to see what this campaign, either deliberately or through plain incompetence, has done to the cause for liberty.

    Personally, I think more can be accomplished by groups like Cato and the Institute for Justice than a quixotic Presidential campaign.

  • C. Bentley

    Doug, a tempest in a small glass of smeared water.
    too many unknown parameters, ifs and ill wishing moles.
    deemed innocent until proven guilty

  • http://www.thelibertypapers.org/author/tarran/ tarran

    Rather than holding your nose and voting for McCain or staying away from the polls, why not show up and vote for “None of The Above”?

    I don’t think a vote for McCain administration would be sufficiently different from a Clinton or Obama administration to justify voting for him.

    Honestly, I don’t think McCain will be a free trader. I fear that he would turn out to be like FDR, who talked of free trade and reducing government interference with the economy, then expanded all of Hoover’s big government programs hundredfold.

  • C. Bentley

    Personally, I think more can be accomplished by groups like Cato and the Institute for Justice than a quixotic Presidential campaign.

    I’m totally with you on the power issue.

    and any help is welcome. however without this quixotic campaign thousands of people, including myself would still be unaware.
    If you cannot acknowledge that, than I cannot and will never understand you.

  • Sabalo

    Reading this blog and the comments by some of those who claim to support Ron Paul, I wonder how many people were turned off of Ron Paul’s entire campaign because of the angry, hateful, childish supporters that insist on attacking anyone that dares to disagree.

    I’ve said it elsewhere, but that vocal minority was probably the one most detrimental element of the entire process. You don’t convince people of your rightness by accusing them of conspiracies, calling them names, and insulting them in general.

    I liked the idea of a Ron Paul presidency (because honestly, there wasn’t anyone else with a chance in hell), but that unruly band of internet bullies made it difficult to have a reasonable conversation with someone with a difference of opinion.

    Then again, those of us with a libertarian bent are used to supporting long shots, so the sting of not getting our way is a bit muted.

  • http://dangerouslyidealistic.blogspot.com/ UCrawford

    tarran,

    Honestly, I don’t think McCain will be a free trader. I fear that he would turn out to be like FDR, who talked of free trade and reducing government interference with the economy, then expanded all of Hoover’s big government programs hundredfold.

    FDR had a much more compliant Congress and was a much more charismatic leader than McCain (which enabled him to sell bad policy so effectively). Frankly, I see McCain as more Nixon than FDR…and I suppose I can live with a new Nixon, so long as he’s not trying to expand the government’s involvement into our health care and can recognize when the war we’re fighting is a lost cause that needs to come to an end.

    I trust Obama a lot less because he is charismatic, he’s got a compliant Congress and he’s got a lot of statist ideas that appeal to the population at large that he might get passed.

  • http://www.thelibertypapers.org/author/tarran/ tarran

    UCrawford, I got three words for you:

    “Whip Inflation Now”

    Oh wait that was Ford…

    “Nixonian Price Controls”
    Oh, and don’t forget that gift that keeps on giving, the “War on Drugs” courtesy of Nixon’s hatred of hippies. ;)

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  • http://dangerouslyidealistic.blogspot.com/ UCrawford

    tarran,

    Hey dude, voting for McCain’s like hooking up with the fat chick at closing time…it’s never an option you’d recommend to anyone, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do :)

    And yes, I realize that Nixon was horrible. McCain will probably be horrible. I think Obama would be worse, just because he has the ability to get what he wants done passed and I don’t think McCain can.

  • http://dangerouslyidealistic.blogspot.com/ UCrawford

    Actually if I wasn’t set on trying to vote my Congressman and Senator out of office I’d probably abstain from voting in this election altogether. I could better put the time to use at work, or perhaps defeating the zombie apocalypse of “Dead Rising” on my X-Box.

  • http://poppychop.net/ Nitroadict

    I’d prefer MGS4, myself :p.

  • Allyssa

    Doug,

    Ok, I read the first 25 comments but I wanted to get my two cents in. FIRST Ron Paul is not a racist, I don’t know why people even believe that? It goes against everything he talks about and acts on. And he always talks what he believes. He believes in INDIVIDUAL liberty, that includes all of us black or white. We don’t get our rights because we belong to a group, we get them from our creator as individuals. If you would take the time to actually listen to him you would understand this and not say he is pandering to racists. SECOND he’s not crazy at all! He is the most sane candidate out there! He talks about Austrian economics because it is vital we listen to him. Our current fiat monetary system is destroying our wealth. We can’t continue the war in the middle east because we simply cannot afford it! I don’t know about you, but I am fairly young, and I’m pissed because everyone who knows anything about economics and foreign policy knows that its never the generation the goes to war that pays for it, its the young people. Our entitlements promises are out of control, we can’t afford all this shit, conservatives are sounding like democrats and its ridiculous! What has happened to CONSERVING our values???? Thats what conservatism is! Thomas Jefferson is rolling in his grave, this is out of hand! The Federal Reserve system is ripping all of us off! This is complete bull shit, I’M PISSED! I’m not just pissed at the current system, but at the conservatives! They are screwing us over BIG TIME! They have completely abandoned what used to be their platform in the name of fighting terror. LASTLY, many of us give money to Ron Paul and urge the campaign to go on to continue the message. We knew from the beginning it was a long shot, but look what we have accomplished, how many people are with us now and it will not stop. It may not happen this election, but soon we will see more Ron Paul conservative in the house and senate.

  • Throatpoker

    It’s incredible how many people here consider themselves as conservatives, yet go at and lash at Ron. Look, he has never pandered to racists, he’s not a racist, and he’s the closest thing to the founding fathers in today’s politics. But, guess I’m just a nut, go ahead and vote for the perpetual wars and paranoia of McCain, or better yet, go and vote for Hillary and her coercive socialist policies, or why not vote for Obama’s “change”, even if he never talks exactly what it means or how a nation 9 trillion dollars in debt can afford it? Yeah, it’s absolutely crazy to think the US is borrowing itself into disaster, that its foreign policies incite hatred and radicalism around the world, that printing money out of thin air and thus causing inflation is not a bad thing, etc. You guys are geniuses.

  • http://www.belowthebeltway.com Doug Mataconis

    Throatpoker,

    I don’t consider myself a conservative.

    Explanation here:

    http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2005/12/06/why-we-are-not-conservatives/

  • http://dangerouslyidealistic.blogspot.com/ UCrawford

    Nitroadict,

    I’d prefer MGS4, myself :p.

    Ah, but does MGS4 have endless hordes of the undead in a mall where almost everything can be used as a weapon against them, and does it feature miniature chain saws? HA!!! Thought not…nothing beats chopping up endless hordes of the undead with a miniature chain saw. :)

    Actually, by the time the general election rolls around I’ll probably be well into my second or third iteration of GTA IV.

  • Akston

    When a nation is 9 trillion dollars in debt, maybe “change” is all that’s left.

    Or maybe it’s more centsless than that. We’ve suffering with the boom-bust cycle of a completely fiat currency system for over 35 years now. Anyone who’s ever driven a 35 year old Fiat knows how unreliable the system is bound to be.

    But never fear, just like any other group that’s deeply in debt, we can spend our way out of it…right? :-)

  • Jagman

    George Allen has been in politics for how many years and he still had a macaca moment didnt he? Well so can McCain. Nothings over till its over.

  • R. Merz

    Sheesh. I’m really disappointed at how hostile you guys have gotten.

  • UCrawford

    R. Merz,

    There were reasons for it. However, I wouldn’t worry too much about it…the primary race is basically over so there’s not much reason to keep discussing Paul-related stuff so I imagine it will peter out.

    It’s good to see you back here, though (seriously)…I was wondering if you were going to pop by again.

  • Benjamin Kuipers

    Doug,

    Why would the RP campaign ever communicate with someone of your ilk? Think of the legitimacy that would shroud your site with… you could ask him if it is true that he sent out fliers advocating collectivism with Joe Stalin or Rooselvelt’s face on them and you wouldn’t get a response.

    “I don’t agree with Paul’s immigration positions to begin with, but they are what they are. Sending out a mailer that effectively characterizes every illegal immigrant as a tatooed member of MS-13 like they guy on the mailer is both factually wrong and clearly meant to appeal to the worst in people.”

    Working in Maricopa County crimminal courts here in lovely Phoenix, I can tell you that a tremendous amount of crime flows directly from illegal-migrant activity. One particularly brutal murder of a teenage girl from the past year by a Coyote comes to mind… If you have ever lived on a border-town, you will realize the tremendous divergence in the value systems of our two proud cultures. It is not racist to wish to preserve our own system of government, our own voluntary associations, and the best of our own culture.

  • Jim

    I was with him in ’88 and that was very frustrating. This time around was pretty darn fun for a while there, and I think there are still some interesting things in store. Anyone who knows politics knew he never had a chance, but he did pretty darn well, considering, and if not for the wars, he might have been the Republican version of Obama. Hey, not bad from a standing start with no money, no name recognition, a virtual media blackout and an impossible platform. In ten months he became the top Republican fund raiser and had a couple of second and third place finishes. Might have even won Lousiana, once it’s sorted out. When you are getting 10-25 percent in multiple states you’re no fringe candidate. He got kids arguing about monetary policy and taking ideas seriously. He’s left a mark. Now he’s working the delegates hard and under the radar because he thinks he can come up with a lot more than the 15-20 he’s expected to have. If he gets just 5 percent that would give him 100, and with some effort that’s possible. This might get him convention air time and allow him to have some influence on the economic planks in the platform. And to all you people who say he ran a lousy campaign, I’d remind you that it was McCain who ran his campaign into bankruptcy and got bailed out with free coverage from his media buddies. RP never had a cent in debt and spent sensibly, though I agree that he should have taken on an experienced, professional campaign manager when the money bombs started, the brushfire was growing and he was on the verge of breaking out. He missed his chance and he carries the blame for that. And now we’ll all pay the price. Buy gold, everyone.

  • UCrawford

    Benjamin,

    Wow…so you work with Maricopa County’s court system, huh? Impressive. Considering your neo-confederate views that goes a long way towards explaining why their court system is such a sham…

    http://phoenixnewtimes.com/2008-01-24/news/the-wrong-driver/1

    …aside from the fact that the people there keep reelecting a corrupt sheriff who thinks it’s acceptable to beat prisoners to death.

  • http://www.thelibertypapers.org/author/tarran/ tarran

    UCrawford,

    That’s the same county where their sheriff is such a chikenshit little coward that he felt the need to buy an armored personnel carrier to protect himself and his men. And being really incompetent, his men once forgot to set the parking brake on the damn thing and it rolled down a street and crushed a car.

    Maricopa county is one of many third-world countries that dot the USA. Places where the government officials exercise despotic control. Places to be avoided, in other words.

  • UCrawford

    tarran,

    Amen, brother…here’s a nice little article demonstrating just what a third-world country Maricopa County is.

    http://phoenixnewtimes.com/2007-12-20/news/inhumanity-has-a-price/1

    The taxpayers of that county have paid out, as of December 20 of last year, around $41 million in lawsuits purely as a result of their idiot sheriff and his gang of clowns. Joe Arpaio has been the subject of more legitimate lawsuits than any other county sheriff in the United States.

    New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Houston, for example, collectively housed more than 61,000 inmates per day last year. From 2004 through November of this year, these same county jails had a combined 43 prison-conditions lawsuits filed against them in federal courts.

    In the very same three-year time frame, despite housing a mere 9,200 prisoners per day, Sheriff Arpaio was the target of a staggering 2,150 lawsuits in U.S. District Court and hundreds more in Maricopa County courts.

    With a fraction of the inmate population, Arpaio has had 50 times as many lawsuits as the New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Houston jail systems combined.

    Based on records produced under the Freedom of Information Act, a review of federal and state records and a comparison with other correctional facilities, the picture that emerges is clear: Cruelty costs.

    Funny how the Maricopa County court system never sees fit to hold their own law enforcement accountable for what they do. But I guess so long as he’s protecting the “best of (your) own culture” $41 million extorted from taxpayers, some unjustified inmate deaths, and a potential health care epidemic is a small price to pay…right Benjamin?

  • oilnwater

    sounds whacko conspiracy theory to me. i bet arpaio met bill, hillary and the bushes for tea and crumpets at bohemian grove after he extorted the 41M.

  • UCrawford

    oilnwater,

    Actually the $41M is just the total of all the money that Maricopa County has paid out simply to settle or pay off the lawsuits against Arpaio in the last 16 years. He screws the taxpayers in other ways too.

    If you want conspiracy theories, you should probably ask about why someone who claims to be saving taxpayers money keeps running over budget by doing things like drastically increasing the amount of overtime pay requested (despite hiring more staff):

    http://www.aznews.us/sheriff_arpaio_is_more_than_$1_million_over_over_time_budget.htm

  • Benjamin Kuipers

    UCrawford,

    I’ve never expressed any view supporting the Confederacy in any way, so go easy… I happen to hold virtually identical views on federalism as Edwin Meese, Janice Rogers Brown, and my first con law professor, Clarence Thomas.. and I fail to see why precisely this ideological association and identification should place me in the wilderness of ostracism…

    I’m finishing my second year of law school, I work in federal and in State courts, and I’m in the top 25% of my class… not the most stellar record it may be, but I’m pleased to have six-figure job offers.

    You submit that because I happen to extern for a governor-appointed judge I agree with the views of Sheriff Joe? Quite an attribution of guilt by association, and a marginal association indeed… Where exactly have I defended or advocated what Sheriff Joe is or has advocated? As I recall… all I have written is “a tremendous amount of crime flows directly from illegal-migrant activity.”

    How this endorses Sheriff Joe’s views is beyond my limited capacities…

  • Benjamin Kuipers

    Tarran,

    Have you ever been to Phoenix? Scottsdale? Tempe? How could you possibly classify Maricopa County as: “one of many third-world countries that dot the USA” is also beyond me… Phoenix is one of the fastest and largest cities in the country, and contains several of the most desirable communities in the “USA”…

    Ignorant.

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