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	<title>Comments on: Lesson In Unintended Consequences #2</title>
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	<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/06/18/lesson-in-unintended-consequences-2/</link>
	<description>Life. Liberty. Property. Defending individual freedom and liberty, one post at a time.</description>
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		<title>By: TerryP</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/06/18/lesson-in-unintended-consequences-2/#comment-57000</link>
		<dc:creator>TerryP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 05:02:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=2632#comment-57000</guid>
		<description>I believe that both Oil and Brad are correct.  

Diesel is a heavily used in the US and is a large function of the cost of our products, especially food.  Almost everything in farming is run by diesel and then the transporting of food is mainly done with diesel.

Brad is also correct in saying that it makes no sense that we are subsidizing diesel to go to Europe.  I believe another reason for high diesel prices is that the gov&#039;t passed some stupid law in regards to sulfur content a couple years ago, which has helped increased the price of diesel as well with little to no benefit.  These are big reasons why diesel prices have skyrocketed even more than gasoline prices.  A few years back diesel prices were lower than gasoline, now they are 60-70 cents higher.  

A sure way to lower food as well as other prices is to stop some of the insane gov&#039;t practices such as the ones described above that are increasing the diesel prices without giving us much or any benefit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe that both Oil and Brad are correct.  </p>
<p>Diesel is a heavily used in the US and is a large function of the cost of our products, especially food.  Almost everything in farming is run by diesel and then the transporting of food is mainly done with diesel.</p>
<p>Brad is also correct in saying that it makes no sense that we are subsidizing diesel to go to Europe.  I believe another reason for high diesel prices is that the gov&#8217;t passed some stupid law in regards to sulfur content a couple years ago, which has helped increased the price of diesel as well with little to no benefit.  These are big reasons why diesel prices have skyrocketed even more than gasoline prices.  A few years back diesel prices were lower than gasoline, now they are 60-70 cents higher.  </p>
<p>A sure way to lower food as well as other prices is to stop some of the insane gov&#8217;t practices such as the ones described above that are increasing the diesel prices without giving us much or any benefit.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Warbiany</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/06/18/lesson-in-unintended-consequences-2/#comment-56991</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Warbiany</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 18:52:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=2632#comment-56991</guid>
		<description>oil,

You&#039;re correct, I misspoke.  Americans use less diesel as a percentage of total automotive use than Europeans, but that doesn&#039;t mean that we &quot;don&#039;t use much diesel&quot;.

It doesn&#039;t change the fact, as pointed out by the article, that we&#039;re currently exporting more diesel than we PRODUCE domestically.  Again, it&#039;s an indication that these subsidies have a ludicrous unintended consequence.

But hey, feel free to criticize throwaway lines while missing the whole point of the post.  Commenters like you are what makes blogging such a rewarding activity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oil,</p>
<p>You&#8217;re correct, I misspoke.  Americans use less diesel as a percentage of total automotive use than Europeans, but that doesn&#8217;t mean that we &#8220;don&#8217;t use much diesel&#8221;.</p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t change the fact, as pointed out by the article, that we&#8217;re currently exporting more diesel than we PRODUCE domestically.  Again, it&#8217;s an indication that these subsidies have a ludicrous unintended consequence.</p>
<p>But hey, feel free to criticize throwaway lines while missing the whole point of the post.  Commenters like you are what makes blogging such a rewarding activity.</p>
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		<title>By: Quincy</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/06/18/lesson-in-unintended-consequences-2/#comment-56984</link>
		<dc:creator>Quincy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 23:41:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=2632#comment-56984</guid>
		<description>Akston - 

Thanks for the numbers.  It helps clarify that oilnwater actually did have a valid point, as 1/3 of fuel usage ain&#039;t chump change.  

oilnwater - 

If you don&#039;t know the difference between calling someone out using facts and reason and throwing a tantrum and calling names, might I humbly suggest you find other people to bother?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Akston &#8211; </p>
<p>Thanks for the numbers.  It helps clarify that oilnwater actually did have a valid point, as 1/3 of fuel usage ain&#8217;t chump change.  </p>
<p>oilnwater &#8211; </p>
<p>If you don&#8217;t know the difference between calling someone out using facts and reason and throwing a tantrum and calling names, might I humbly suggest you find other people to bother?</p>
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		<title>By: Akston</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/06/18/lesson-in-unintended-consequences-2/#comment-56982</link>
		<dc:creator>Akston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:08:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=2632#comment-56982</guid>
		<description>As to the point of this article – that simple government solutions to complex problems are rife with laughable unintended consequences – I say the assertion is proven time and again with countless stories like these.

I think of it in terms of a leverage analogy.  In order for a small group of people (say congress) to move an economy of 300 million participants, they often use the leverage of a national edict, like that $1 per gallon of mixing credit.  As they move their end of the lever in what appears to them to be a small increment, massive changes occur on the leveraged end.  It&#039;s impossible to enact subtle, organic changes in a nation via national edict.  For those types of changes, government has to refrain from leveraging power nationally and defer to ever-more-local control.

Who is the best suited to decide what 300 million people should do?  Those 300 million people themselves.  As the decisions are made further from the people directly involved in the transactions, increased exaggeration is the inevitable consequence of that increased leverage.

This, of course, doesn&#039;t even begin to address any ethical issues of who should have the right to decide what for another person.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As to the point of this article – that simple government solutions to complex problems are rife with laughable unintended consequences – I say the assertion is proven time and again with countless stories like these.</p>
<p>I think of it in terms of a leverage analogy.  In order for a small group of people (say congress) to move an economy of 300 million participants, they often use the leverage of a national edict, like that $1 per gallon of mixing credit.  As they move their end of the lever in what appears to them to be a small increment, massive changes occur on the leveraged end.  It&#8217;s impossible to enact subtle, organic changes in a nation via national edict.  For those types of changes, government has to refrain from leveraging power nationally and defer to ever-more-local control.</p>
<p>Who is the best suited to decide what 300 million people should do?  Those 300 million people themselves.  As the decisions are made further from the people directly involved in the transactions, increased exaggeration is the inevitable consequence of that increased leverage.</p>
<p>This, of course, doesn&#8217;t even begin to address any ethical issues of who should have the right to decide what for another person.</p>
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		<title>By: Akston</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/06/18/lesson-in-unintended-consequences-2/#comment-56981</link>
		<dc:creator>Akston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 17:50:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=2632#comment-56981</guid>
		<description>I wasn&#039;t aware of the details of gasoline vs. diesel vs. biodiesel usage in the U.S., so I looked it up.

Apparently, using 2005 figures, motor gasoline use is roughly twice diesel fuel usage: 9.16 million barrels per day used for motor gasoline, versus 4.12 million barrels per day for diesel (including other fuel oil).

And while I didn&#039;t readily find a comparison of petroleum diesel versus biodiesel fuel consumption, most of the numbers look like it&#039;s a least a magnitude different (we use at least ten times as much petroleum-based diesel fuel).

Sources:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/infosheets/petroleumproductsconsumption.html
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/alternate/page/renew_energy_consump/table1.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wasn&#8217;t aware of the details of gasoline vs. diesel vs. biodiesel usage in the U.S., so I looked it up.</p>
<p>Apparently, using 2005 figures, motor gasoline use is roughly twice diesel fuel usage: 9.16 million barrels per day used for motor gasoline, versus 4.12 million barrels per day for diesel (including other fuel oil).</p>
<p>And while I didn&#8217;t readily find a comparison of petroleum diesel versus biodiesel fuel consumption, most of the numbers look like it&#8217;s a least a magnitude different (we use at least ten times as much petroleum-based diesel fuel).</p>
<p>Sources:<br />
<a href="http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/infosheets/petroleumproductsconsumption.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/infosheets/petroleumproductsconsumption.html</a><br />
<a href="http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/alternate/page/renew_energy_consump/table1.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/alternate/page/renew_energy_consump/table1.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Littau</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/06/18/lesson-in-unintended-consequences-2/#comment-56979</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Littau</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 16:14:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=2632#comment-56979</guid>
		<description>All this from a person who doesn&#039;t even use proper GRADE SCHOOL punctuation and grammar (and he calls us toddlers?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All this from a person who doesn&#8217;t even use proper GRADE SCHOOL punctuation and grammar (and he calls us toddlers?)</p>
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		<title>By: UCrawford</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/06/18/lesson-in-unintended-consequences-2/#comment-56978</link>
		<dc:creator>UCrawford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:25:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=2632#comment-56978</guid>
		<description>oilnwater,

Because whenever you deem one of our arguments &quot;wrong&quot; you rarely come up with a legitimate case to rebut.

I know that you&#039;ve got a decent education and that you&#039;re not incapable of debating this stuff, and every once in awhile you bring up points that have some validity to them.  But those points seem to happen less and less often and are usually replaced by personal attacks that seem based in little more than you being pissed off because of how we treated your candidate in the race.  And nobody here is really interested in hearing about it.  That&#039;s why you get ignored.

Up the quality of your responses, people will start taking your criticism seriously and possibly reconsider our positions on some topics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oilnwater,</p>
<p>Because whenever you deem one of our arguments &#8220;wrong&#8221; you rarely come up with a legitimate case to rebut.</p>
<p>I know that you&#8217;ve got a decent education and that you&#8217;re not incapable of debating this stuff, and every once in awhile you bring up points that have some validity to them.  But those points seem to happen less and less often and are usually replaced by personal attacks that seem based in little more than you being pissed off because of how we treated your candidate in the race.  And nobody here is really interested in hearing about it.  That&#8217;s why you get ignored.</p>
<p>Up the quality of your responses, people will start taking your criticism seriously and possibly reconsider our positions on some topics.</p>
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		<title>By: oilnwater</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/06/18/lesson-in-unintended-consequences-2/#comment-56973</link>
		<dc:creator>oilnwater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 06:45:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=2632#comment-56973</guid>
		<description>save it.  asshatterty is a commodity that will never be in short supply on an opinion forum.  but really seeing this here... i knew i always thought lesser of the &quot;minds&quot; here for some nebulous reason, but this thread&#039;s responses opened my eyes in a very visceral way to the lack of life experience so many of you have.  i mena the very basic act of touching, or working with, or anything regarding how things work.  i always assumed i was largely ignored here and probably should be.  but how can you guys just say things that are so blatantly wrong and not be called out on it?  i mean objectively and horribly wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>save it.  asshatterty is a commodity that will never be in short supply on an opinion forum.  but really seeing this here&#8230; i knew i always thought lesser of the &#8220;minds&#8221; here for some nebulous reason, but this thread&#8217;s responses opened my eyes in a very visceral way to the lack of life experience so many of you have.  i mena the very basic act of touching, or working with, or anything regarding how things work.  i always assumed i was largely ignored here and probably should be.  but how can you guys just say things that are so blatantly wrong and not be called out on it?  i mean objectively and horribly wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Quincy</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/06/18/lesson-in-unintended-consequences-2/#comment-56972</link>
		<dc:creator>Quincy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 06:34:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=2632#comment-56972</guid>
		<description>Hey oilnwater - 

I&#039;d suggest you stick to criticizing the writing and not go off dropping f-bombs and calling the contributors to this site toddlers.  The former adds to the discussion while the latter just makes you look like an asshat who should be ignored, which is a shame because you have made some good points here before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey oilnwater &#8211; </p>
<p>I&#8217;d suggest you stick to criticizing the writing and not go off dropping f-bombs and calling the contributors to this site toddlers.  The former adds to the discussion while the latter just makes you look like an asshat who should be ignored, which is a shame because you have made some good points here before.</p>
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		<title>By: oilnwater</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/06/18/lesson-in-unintended-consequences-2/#comment-56971</link>
		<dc:creator>oilnwater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 05:51:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=2632#comment-56971</guid>
		<description>seriously, even many fucking toddlers know this.  t-o-d-d-l-e-r-s.  &quot;Big Engine Need Other Gas, When We Going To McDonalds Mommy?&quot; what the fuck are you peoples&#039; occupations anyway?  jesus dude i have a hunch most of you could simply use a Malthusian cleansing posthaste.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>seriously, even many fucking toddlers know this.  t-o-d-d-l-e-r-s.  &#8220;Big Engine Need Other Gas, When We Going To McDonalds Mommy?&#8221; what the fuck are you peoples&#8217; occupations anyway?  jesus dude i have a hunch most of you could simply use a Malthusian cleansing posthaste.</p>
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		<title>By: oilnwater</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/06/18/lesson-in-unintended-consequences-2/#comment-56970</link>
		<dc:creator>oilnwater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 05:18:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=2632#comment-56970</guid>
		<description>oh, and i saw this like 2 or 3 days ago and was like &quot;W T F&quot; in my mind, and thought someone, ANYONE, would have simply set any of you straight on what actually runs on diesel.  it really lets me know how either white collar and/or no-collar this forum really is.  the vast majority of you know next to nothing about life in general.  take that how you will, whatever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oh, and i saw this like 2 or 3 days ago and was like &#8220;W T F&#8221; in my mind, and thought someone, ANYONE, would have simply set any of you straight on what actually runs on diesel.  it really lets me know how either white collar and/or no-collar this forum really is.  the vast majority of you know next to nothing about life in general.  take that how you will, whatever.</p>
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		<title>By: oilnwater</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/06/18/lesson-in-unintended-consequences-2/#comment-56969</link>
		<dc:creator>oilnwater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 05:13:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=2632#comment-56969</guid>
		<description>diesel is the lifeblood, read lifeblood as literal, juice of both transportation and construction.  in both the US and any country on the planet.  jesus, you would think any of you would know that, with even a cursory familiarization of anything.

and that&#039;s not to say this particular article is bunk on knowledge regarding the sham of &quot;biodiesel.&quot;  what the article itself is adressing is entirely spot on.  the issue of &quot;biodiesel,&quot; the regulation of such, and the consequences are quite correct.  but seeing so many of you assuming that this fuel is unimportant and doesnt factor in our US economy in a significant way is so ignorant that it&#039;s absolutely mindboggling.  let&#039;s me know what nancyboys you forum goers really are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>diesel is the lifeblood, read lifeblood as literal, juice of both transportation and construction.  in both the US and any country on the planet.  jesus, you would think any of you would know that, with even a cursory familiarization of anything.</p>
<p>and that&#8217;s not to say this particular article is bunk on knowledge regarding the sham of &#8220;biodiesel.&#8221;  what the article itself is adressing is entirely spot on.  the issue of &#8220;biodiesel,&#8221; the regulation of such, and the consequences are quite correct.  but seeing so many of you assuming that this fuel is unimportant and doesnt factor in our US economy in a significant way is so ignorant that it&#8217;s absolutely mindboggling.  let&#8217;s me know what nancyboys you forum goers really are.</p>
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		<title>By: tim</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/06/18/lesson-in-unintended-consequences-2/#comment-56968</link>
		<dc:creator>tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 04:36:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=2632#comment-56968</guid>
		<description>One main problem here. Americans don’t use much diesel. So they’re subsidizing foreign, not domestic, use. In fact, they’re simply sending money for non-American-produced diesel that won’t be consumed on American soil to foreign fuel companies.
My point is that the entire premise of this post
is ignorant and wrong. Americans use massive amounts of diesel. Whether it&#039;s indirectly or not doesn&#039;t matter. So tell me.. what&#039;s so funny about it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One main problem here. Americans don’t use much diesel. So they’re subsidizing foreign, not domestic, use. In fact, they’re simply sending money for non-American-produced diesel that won’t be consumed on American soil to foreign fuel companies.<br />
My point is that the entire premise of this post<br />
is ignorant and wrong. Americans use massive amounts of diesel. Whether it&#8217;s indirectly or not doesn&#8217;t matter. So tell me.. what&#8217;s so funny about it?</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/06/18/lesson-in-unintended-consequences-2/#comment-56964</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:24:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=2632#comment-56964</guid>
		<description>Tim:
&lt;blockquote&gt;maybe i’m wrong.. but aren’t the trucks that
transport every single good we buy, and basically make the American way of life possible powered by diesel?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
What&#039;s your point?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim:</p>
<blockquote><p>maybe i’m wrong.. but aren’t the trucks that<br />
transport every single good we buy, and basically make the American way of life possible powered by diesel?</p></blockquote>
<p>What&#8217;s your point?</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Molby</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/06/18/lesson-in-unintended-consequences-2/#comment-56956</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Molby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 02:41:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=2632#comment-56956</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;maybe i’m wrong.. but aren’t the trucks that transport every single good we buy, and
basically make the American way of life
possible powered by diesel?&lt;blockquote&gt;
Yes, but aside from heating oil (which is basically just diesel fuel), that&#039;s the &lt;em&gt;only&lt;/em&gt; use of diesel in this country. Almost every non-commercial vehicle on the road runs on unleaded fuel.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>maybe i’m wrong.. but aren’t the trucks that transport every single good we buy, and<br />
basically make the American way of life<br />
possible powered by diesel?<br />
<blockquote>
Yes, but aside from heating oil (which is basically just diesel fuel), that&#8217;s the <em>only</em> use of diesel in this country. Almost every non-commercial vehicle on the road runs on unleaded fuel.</p></blockquote>
</blockquote>
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