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	<title>Comments on: Monday Open Thread &#8212; Grounds For Secession?</title>
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	<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/11/10/monday-open-thread-grounds-for-secession/</link>
	<description>Life. Liberty. Property. Defending individual freedom and liberty, one post at a time.</description>
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		<title>By: Jeff Molby</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/11/10/monday-open-thread-grounds-for-secession/#comment-61107</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Molby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 08:56:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=3165#comment-61107</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Although I agree with them in spirit (as an anarchist I fully support the right to secede) in terms of pragmatism, it’s clearly unconstitutional.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Tell that to Kentucky, Maine, and West Virginia. 

It&#039;s not going to happen, but there&#039;s no reason it couldn&#039;t.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Although I agree with them in spirit (as an anarchist I fully support the right to secede) in terms of pragmatism, it’s clearly unconstitutional.</p></blockquote>
<p>Tell that to Kentucky, Maine, and West Virginia. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s not going to happen, but there&#8217;s no reason it couldn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Kelly</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/11/10/monday-open-thread-grounds-for-secession/#comment-61089</link>
		<dc:creator>Kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:46:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=3165#comment-61089</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I used to live in Mt. Shasta, which is about an hour south of the Oregon border and probaly has the most prosperity of any area in the region. The politics are for the most part extreme on both ends of the spectrum. The majority would be far right wing christian extremist who distrust everything and everyone, especially government. The other extreme are social drop out new age hippy spiritualist who would happily share what meager portions of food they have scrounged with whoever was in need, as well as thier habitat.

Siskyous county which is on the California side of the border (lined with a huge mountain range) is one of the poorest counties in the state and gets very little resource or assistance from the state. It also has a very high percentage of mentally ill. Because of the mountains, it is a easy place to escape from society, which is why many people choose to live there. 
The big issue with California will be the water supply. This is the head water for the Sacramento River. Southern California needs this water supply and won&#039;t be willing to pay for it. Because of that resource, I don&#039;t believe the State of Jefferson will ever be a reality without a revolution.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I used to live in Mt. Shasta, which is about an hour south of the Oregon border and probaly has the most prosperity of any area in the region. The politics are for the most part extreme on both ends of the spectrum. The majority would be far right wing christian extremist who distrust everything and everyone, especially government. The other extreme are social drop out new age hippy spiritualist who would happily share what meager portions of food they have scrounged with whoever was in need, as well as thier habitat.</p>
<p>Siskyous county which is on the California side of the border (lined with a huge mountain range) is one of the poorest counties in the state and gets very little resource or assistance from the state. It also has a very high percentage of mentally ill. Because of the mountains, it is a easy place to escape from society, which is why many people choose to live there.<br />
The big issue with California will be the water supply. This is the head water for the Sacramento River. Southern California needs this water supply and won&#8217;t be willing to pay for it. Because of that resource, I don&#8217;t believe the State of Jefferson will ever be a reality without a revolution.</p>
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		<title>By: David Z</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/11/10/monday-open-thread-grounds-for-secession/#comment-61077</link>
		<dc:creator>David Z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 03:28:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=3165#comment-61077</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Although I agree with them in spirit (as an anarchist I fully support the right to secede) in terms of pragmatism, it&#039;s clearly unconstitutional.  Only government cronies are allowed to violate the constitution.  Establishing a new state within the borders of an existing one, or from parts of existing states violates the letter of the highest law in the land.  It would require approval (I think, but could be mistaken on this technicality) of the Senate and the House. Pigs will fly...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although I agree with them in spirit (as an anarchist I fully support the right to secede) in terms of pragmatism, it&#8217;s clearly unconstitutional.  Only government cronies are allowed to violate the constitution.  Establishing a new state within the borders of an existing one, or from parts of existing states violates the letter of the highest law in the land.  It would require approval (I think, but could be mistaken on this technicality) of the Senate and the House. Pigs will fly&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/11/10/monday-open-thread-grounds-for-secession/#comment-61074</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 23:53:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=3165#comment-61074</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The State of Jefferson movement has a pretty long history.  Some of it is discussed here:
http://johnschwenkler.wordpress.com/2008/10/27/untied-states/

One thing I can say with some certainty is that you could say many states would benefit from being split up in some way.  For instance, there&#039;s been talk for years - actually since the beginning of the Republic - of upstate and downstate New York splitting up. And northern and southern Florida have exactly nothing in common.

One of the primary arguments (in Federalist #10) against a purely democratic form of government and in favor of a system of federalism in the argument over the Constitution was that the individual states - as then constituted - were already too large to act as viable democracies with little oversight from a central government.  If those states were too large to be viable democracies because of democracy&#039;s poor treatment of faction, imagine how today&#039;s individual states fit within that rubric.  Ultimately, I suspect the US would probably be better off if we broke things down into extremely small state-level units as much as possible with the purpose of the federal government limited to protecting the rights of political minorities, safeguarding interstate and international free trade, and defending against foreign attacks....you know, basically what the Constitution (plus the 14th Amendment) actually says.  I&#039;d say an ideal state size would be no more than one or two million people (except in the cases of large cities).  To promote efficiency of government services, you allow for multi-state compacts and authorities with powers limited to specific provisions of services.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The State of Jefferson movement has a pretty long history.  Some of it is discussed here:<br />
<a href="http://johnschwenkler.wordpress.com/2008/10/27/untied-states/" rel="nofollow">http://johnschwenkler.wordpress.com/2008/10/27/untied-states/</a></p>
<p>One thing I can say with some certainty is that you could say many states would benefit from being split up in some way.  For instance, there&#8217;s been talk for years &#8211; actually since the beginning of the Republic &#8211; of upstate and downstate New York splitting up. And northern and southern Florida have exactly nothing in common.</p>
<p>One of the primary arguments (in Federalist #10) against a purely democratic form of government and in favor of a system of federalism in the argument over the Constitution was that the individual states &#8211; as then constituted &#8211; were already too large to act as viable democracies with little oversight from a central government.  If those states were too large to be viable democracies because of democracy&#8217;s poor treatment of faction, imagine how today&#8217;s individual states fit within that rubric.  Ultimately, I suspect the US would probably be better off if we broke things down into extremely small state-level units as much as possible with the purpose of the federal government limited to protecting the rights of political minorities, safeguarding interstate and international free trade, and defending against foreign attacks&#8230;.you know, basically what the Constitution (plus the 14th Amendment) actually says.  I&#8217;d say an ideal state size would be no more than one or two million people (except in the cases of large cities).  To promote efficiency of government services, you allow for multi-state compacts and authorities with powers limited to specific provisions of services.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Warbiany</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/11/10/monday-open-thread-grounds-for-secession/#comment-61067</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Warbiany</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:20:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=3165#comment-61067</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thomas,

From the article, it sounds like they have a pretty wide range of politics there -- but my guess is that it would naturally be a lot more libertarian than either Sacramento or Salem.  But they make the point that it&#039;s more about self-determination than tiny government.  They want to govern themselves because their needs are less than even an afterthought in their current states.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thomas,</p>
<p>From the article, it sounds like they have a pretty wide range of politics there &#8212; but my guess is that it would naturally be a lot more libertarian than either Sacramento or Salem.  But they make the point that it&#8217;s more about self-determination than tiny government.  They want to govern themselves because their needs are less than even an afterthought in their current states.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/11/10/monday-open-thread-grounds-for-secession/#comment-61066</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:14:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=3165#comment-61066</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think it would be good for some of the states to break apart.  This is a great example.  The more subdivisions of government, the better.  How about we have the national government give some power back to the states too?

Just curious, what sort of population are we talking about here, about how many congressional districts would the state of Jefferson get?

I have heard the idea of breaking off the Upper Peninsula of Michigan to make a new state, called Superior (like the Lake).  That would be just fine with me (I live in lower Michigan). Let the UPers (pronounced &#039;yoopers&#039;) have their own state, they are certainly different from us down here. Although, it would make sense to include the northernmost third of the lower peninsula in Superior as well, but drawing the boundary there would be more difficult than just putting it in the water.  If you are wondering about population, I think they would be bigger than Wyoming (but that&#039;s not saying much).

Are there any other portions of states that either want to break off or would make sense to break off? Would it make sense to cut California into a Northern California and Southern California?

Like I said, it would be a good thing to have a few more states.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it would be good for some of the states to break apart.  This is a great example.  The more subdivisions of government, the better.  How about we have the national government give some power back to the states too?</p>
<p>Just curious, what sort of population are we talking about here, about how many congressional districts would the state of Jefferson get?</p>
<p>I have heard the idea of breaking off the Upper Peninsula of Michigan to make a new state, called Superior (like the Lake).  That would be just fine with me (I live in lower Michigan). Let the UPers (pronounced &#8216;yoopers&#8217;) have their own state, they are certainly different from us down here. Although, it would make sense to include the northernmost third of the lower peninsula in Superior as well, but drawing the boundary there would be more difficult than just putting it in the water.  If you are wondering about population, I think they would be bigger than Wyoming (but that&#8217;s not saying much).</p>
<p>Are there any other portions of states that either want to break off or would make sense to break off? Would it make sense to cut California into a Northern California and Southern California?</p>
<p>Like I said, it would be a good thing to have a few more states.</p>
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		<title>By: thomasblair</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/11/10/monday-open-thread-grounds-for-secession/#comment-61063</link>
		<dc:creator>thomasblair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:57:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=3165#comment-61063</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Let them out.

Out of curiosity, do you know what the politics are like in that area? Are they wanting to create a Galt&#039;s Gulch or a collectivist paradise?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let them out.</p>
<p>Out of curiosity, do you know what the politics are like in that area? Are they wanting to create a Galt&#8217;s Gulch or a collectivist paradise?</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Molby</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/11/10/monday-open-thread-grounds-for-secession/#comment-61061</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Molby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:40:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=3165#comment-61061</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It would probably make more sense to grant them territorial status first.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would probably make more sense to grant them territorial status first.</p>
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