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	<title>Comments on: Can The Country Survive?</title>
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	<description>Life. Liberty. Property. Defending individual freedom and liberty, one post at a time.</description>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2009/08/12/can-the-country-survive/#comment-68903</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Aug 2009 23:48:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=6610#comment-68903</guid>
		<description>When you come to a fork, eat your vegetables.  Why don&#039;t you divide us by our buying power? the one % and the 80 %.  How about those that believe God Loves a Drunk and those that hate drinkers? How about those of us that are animals and those that believe we are not animals?  We are social creatures, we use language, and none of us can take much when we go.  When there are too many of us, the collective and the individual are capable of losing.  I wonder if I will be free of attachment to things when I go, will you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When you come to a fork, eat your vegetables.  Why don&#8217;t you divide us by our buying power? the one % and the 80 %.  How about those that believe God Loves a Drunk and those that hate drinkers? How about those of us that are animals and those that believe we are not animals?  We are social creatures, we use language, and none of us can take much when we go.  When there are too many of us, the collective and the individual are capable of losing.  I wonder if I will be free of attachment to things when I go, will you?</p>
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		<title>By: Tsu Dho Nihm</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2009/08/12/can-the-country-survive/#comment-68822</link>
		<dc:creator>Tsu Dho Nihm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 16:31:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=6610#comment-68822</guid>
		<description>&quot;When you come to a fork in the road, take it.&quot;
-- Yogi Berra</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;When you come to a fork in the road, take it.&#8221;<br />
&#8211; Yogi Berra</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2009/08/12/can-the-country-survive/#comment-68788</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 14:07:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=6610#comment-68788</guid>
		<description>Brad,

I was looking for a contact link, but could not find any. I want to offer the advertising space on my race car to The Liberty Papers.   No charge. I am going to the NASA Championship race in about 3 weeks and have not been able to secure any paid ads.  So I would like to further the cause of liberty.  In fact you can design a theme for the entire car.

You tube video:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdrUfR3JNjU

Steve Kolrud
skolrud@earthlink.net</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad,</p>
<p>I was looking for a contact link, but could not find any. I want to offer the advertising space on my race car to The Liberty Papers.   No charge. I am going to the NASA Championship race in about 3 weeks and have not been able to secure any paid ads.  So I would like to further the cause of liberty.  In fact you can design a theme for the entire car.</p>
<p>You tube video:<br />
 <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdrUfR3JNjU" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdrUfR3JNjU</a></p>
<p>Steve Kolrud<br />
<a href="mailto:skolrud@earthlink.net">skolrud@earthlink.net</a></p>
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		<title>By: Akston</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2009/08/12/can-the-country-survive/#comment-68774</link>
		<dc:creator>Akston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 20:37:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=6610#comment-68774</guid>
		<description>I constantly find it interesting that the very people who seem to champion the downtrodden by vilifying and confiscating from the successful end up having such little regard for those downtrodden.

The objects of their pity cannot possibly be trusted to live their lives in freedom.  They might fail.  They might not be willing or able to achieve what the kindly observer expects them to achieve.  They might choose badly for themselves.  They might suffer consequences.

Better to infantilize and control those poor unfortunates.

How little regard the beneficent truly demonstrate.

Is it not possible that those other citizens&#039; point of view is as well or as poorly considered as your own?  What makes my judgment superior to theirs or yours?  Is advocating the control over other citizens&#039; choices respectful to those citizens, or dismissive and condescending?  Which of your decisions should I make for you?

America was founded, and continues to attract immigrants, based on the concept of open opportunity, individual responsibility, risk, and reward.  But America was founded 233 years ago.  Collectivism thrives in older cultures whose citizens begin to value a perception of safety over liberty.  That the perceived safety comes at the expense of others&#039; freedom, and one&#039;s own freedom, is often seen as an acceptable price.

Maybe American culture is just too old, fat, and happy.  Maybe our headlong rush into the brick wall of unsustainable economic policy will remove enough of the fat and happy component to remind us of the power of liberty.  Freedom and free markets built America, not governmentally imposed collectivism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I constantly find it interesting that the very people who seem to champion the downtrodden by vilifying and confiscating from the successful end up having such little regard for those downtrodden.</p>
<p>The objects of their pity cannot possibly be trusted to live their lives in freedom.  They might fail.  They might not be willing or able to achieve what the kindly observer expects them to achieve.  They might choose badly for themselves.  They might suffer consequences.</p>
<p>Better to infantilize and control those poor unfortunates.</p>
<p>How little regard the beneficent truly demonstrate.</p>
<p>Is it not possible that those other citizens&#8217; point of view is as well or as poorly considered as your own?  What makes my judgment superior to theirs or yours?  Is advocating the control over other citizens&#8217; choices respectful to those citizens, or dismissive and condescending?  Which of your decisions should I make for you?</p>
<p>America was founded, and continues to attract immigrants, based on the concept of open opportunity, individual responsibility, risk, and reward.  But America was founded 233 years ago.  Collectivism thrives in older cultures whose citizens begin to value a perception of safety over liberty.  That the perceived safety comes at the expense of others&#8217; freedom, and one&#8217;s own freedom, is often seen as an acceptable price.</p>
<p>Maybe American culture is just too old, fat, and happy.  Maybe our headlong rush into the brick wall of unsustainable economic policy will remove enough of the fat and happy component to remind us of the power of liberty.  Freedom and free markets built America, not governmentally imposed collectivism.</p>
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		<title>By: John222</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2009/08/12/can-the-country-survive/#comment-68770</link>
		<dc:creator>John222</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 19:37:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=6610#comment-68770</guid>
		<description>It does seem as if the collectivists consider the issue settled. They honestly can&#039;t understand why one would not want to be a part of the group. It&#039;s all about &quot;the common good&quot;. If it&#039;s so good why do we have to force people to take part?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It does seem as if the collectivists consider the issue settled. They honestly can&#8217;t understand why one would not want to be a part of the group. It&#8217;s all about &#8220;the common good&#8221;. If it&#8217;s so good why do we have to force people to take part?</p>
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		<title>By: southernjames</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2009/08/12/can-the-country-survive/#comment-68765</link>
		<dc:creator>southernjames</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 18:30:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=6610#comment-68765</guid>
		<description>&quot;It’s a battle of principles over the moral validity of looting itself.&quot;  

As far as I can tell, it appears that the collectivists have considered that question to be settled, and no longer open for debate.  And would prefer that you kindly just shut the fuck up please.  You lost.  They won.  You lost for good too.  If you really MUST open your mouth, submit your question in writing, or politely raise your hand and hope to be called upon, and then IF you are called on - please be VERY polite and soft-spoken, humble, and respectful.  Perhaps even a little obsequious bow might be in order.  Whatever you do...just keep it &#039;civil.&#039;!! 

I have never seen such an intense and smothering call for &quot;civility&quot; in the face of some folks getting pissed off and actually daring to yell at their congressmen...in my entire life.  I have never seen such demonizing, and smearing, of honest everyday people - 90% of whom have NEVER attended a protest in their entire LIVES - but who are feeling that the collectivist mindset  holding all the power in DC, is hell bent on ramming through massive changes to our economic system - with no discussion or debate allowed - and as a result, have decided that....well, maybe it&#039;s time to stop being so meek and silent and acquiescing.  Maybe it&#039;s time to actually start yelling at congressmen who arrogantly refuse to even READ a bill, let alone discuss it with their constituents, before voting on it.    

I have read several examples this week, of bloggers looking back and citing to numerous national media reports that completely ignored the heinous signs and vicious chants and disruptions that took place, directed at Bush as they were happening back then.   The posters with his face and a gun pointed at it; the Hitler references, etc., etc. Truly venal, and NOTHING like the tame stuff being done at these town halls.  It was all okay then.  Not even worth covering or discussing on the news.  It was &quot;speaking truth to power&quot; when it was leftists doing it.  

But NOW...front page of my morning paper ...&quot;Calls for civility in health care debate&quot;   NOW, the establishment is suddenly obsessed with, and anxious for, &quot;civility.&quot;  

This country IS splitting into two (hostile) camps. IMO. And the camp with all the political power (consisting of people from BOTH political parties) is going to have to use this power to (over time - I&#039;m thinking after the 2012 elections) to disarm the other, and smaller (30% or so of the populace) camp.  

Because the individualists have most of the guns - which destabilizes the situation temporarily - but the collectivists control the media, police, military, and have the power of martial law; and the power to do things like tax/regulate ammo manufacturers out of existence.  This is coming, IMO. 

As for this health care debacle, I have read that the ONE and ONLY chance of this 1000 page monster being defeated lies SOLELY with how the Blue Dog dems end up voting.  Watch carefully for back door deals, sweetheart pork doled out for certain areas, thinly and not so thinly veiled bribes and threats - lots more demagoguery; lots of lies and distortions and media attempts to destroy the characters of &quot;tea baggers&quot; and town hallies; more fake &quot;kabuki theater&quot; faux open discussion by  Charlatan politicians - complete with &quot;plants&quot; for asking the questions; mass media concocted hysteria if ONE nutjob brings a swastika to a rally, etc. 

I think we&#039;re probably going down. It&#039;s probably inevitable.  But we should not go quietly.  We owe it to our kids to at least try to resist it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It’s a battle of principles over the moral validity of looting itself.&#8221;  </p>
<p>As far as I can tell, it appears that the collectivists have considered that question to be settled, and no longer open for debate.  And would prefer that you kindly just shut the fuck up please.  You lost.  They won.  You lost for good too.  If you really MUST open your mouth, submit your question in writing, or politely raise your hand and hope to be called upon, and then IF you are called on &#8211; please be VERY polite and soft-spoken, humble, and respectful.  Perhaps even a little obsequious bow might be in order.  Whatever you do&#8230;just keep it &#8216;civil.&#8217;!! </p>
<p>I have never seen such an intense and smothering call for &#8220;civility&#8221; in the face of some folks getting pissed off and actually daring to yell at their congressmen&#8230;in my entire life.  I have never seen such demonizing, and smearing, of honest everyday people &#8211; 90% of whom have NEVER attended a protest in their entire LIVES &#8211; but who are feeling that the collectivist mindset  holding all the power in DC, is hell bent on ramming through massive changes to our economic system &#8211; with no discussion or debate allowed &#8211; and as a result, have decided that&#8230;.well, maybe it&#8217;s time to stop being so meek and silent and acquiescing.  Maybe it&#8217;s time to actually start yelling at congressmen who arrogantly refuse to even READ a bill, let alone discuss it with their constituents, before voting on it.    </p>
<p>I have read several examples this week, of bloggers looking back and citing to numerous national media reports that completely ignored the heinous signs and vicious chants and disruptions that took place, directed at Bush as they were happening back then.   The posters with his face and a gun pointed at it; the Hitler references, etc., etc. Truly venal, and NOTHING like the tame stuff being done at these town halls.  It was all okay then.  Not even worth covering or discussing on the news.  It was &#8220;speaking truth to power&#8221; when it was leftists doing it.  </p>
<p>But NOW&#8230;front page of my morning paper &#8230;&#8221;Calls for civility in health care debate&#8221;   NOW, the establishment is suddenly obsessed with, and anxious for, &#8220;civility.&#8221;  </p>
<p>This country IS splitting into two (hostile) camps. IMO. And the camp with all the political power (consisting of people from BOTH political parties) is going to have to use this power to (over time &#8211; I&#8217;m thinking after the 2012 elections) to disarm the other, and smaller (30% or so of the populace) camp.  </p>
<p>Because the individualists have most of the guns &#8211; which destabilizes the situation temporarily &#8211; but the collectivists control the media, police, military, and have the power of martial law; and the power to do things like tax/regulate ammo manufacturers out of existence.  This is coming, IMO. </p>
<p>As for this health care debacle, I have read that the ONE and ONLY chance of this 1000 page monster being defeated lies SOLELY with how the Blue Dog dems end up voting.  Watch carefully for back door deals, sweetheart pork doled out for certain areas, thinly and not so thinly veiled bribes and threats &#8211; lots more demagoguery; lots of lies and distortions and media attempts to destroy the characters of &#8220;tea baggers&#8221; and town hallies; more fake &#8220;kabuki theater&#8221; faux open discussion by  Charlatan politicians &#8211; complete with &#8220;plants&#8221; for asking the questions; mass media concocted hysteria if ONE nutjob brings a swastika to a rally, etc. </p>
<p>I think we&#8217;re probably going down. It&#8217;s probably inevitable.  But we should not go quietly.  We owe it to our kids to at least try to resist it.</p>
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		<title>By: silvermine</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2009/08/12/can-the-country-survive/#comment-68764</link>
		<dc:creator>silvermine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 18:23:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=6610#comment-68764</guid>
		<description>Do the collectivists understand this? I don&#039;t think most of them do. They assume all people want to be part of a group, and if you won&#039;t join theirs, you must be an enemy. They don&#039;t understand why someone would want to learn something on their own, or not be part of a committee. I think. At least a lot of them. It hurts them to think someone would want to keep their own idea, instead of sharing it and having it be changed by a group. Like, it&#039;s personally insulting.

Just like it&#039;s insulting to us for someone to say we can&#039;t have it the way we want it, because 20 other people like it another way. 

The thing is -- collectivits can always cooperatively, without government, go have a freaking collective. But if they coerce us into one, it&#039;s specifically to keep us from doing our individualist thing. Why can&#039;t they see that?!

I just, really, maybe I&#039;m giving them too much benefit of the doubt, but I&#039;m not sure I can imagine people I do think of as friends thinking that it would just be darn happy to force we to do something contrary to my inner self and needs. But maybe they would. I don&#039;t know. I tend to trust no one (except very close family), and expect everyone is going to stab me in the back sometime. Sad, huh? (Apparently that&#039;s just the INTJ way...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do the collectivists understand this? I don&#8217;t think most of them do. They assume all people want to be part of a group, and if you won&#8217;t join theirs, you must be an enemy. They don&#8217;t understand why someone would want to learn something on their own, or not be part of a committee. I think. At least a lot of them. It hurts them to think someone would want to keep their own idea, instead of sharing it and having it be changed by a group. Like, it&#8217;s personally insulting.</p>
<p>Just like it&#8217;s insulting to us for someone to say we can&#8217;t have it the way we want it, because 20 other people like it another way. </p>
<p>The thing is &#8212; collectivits can always cooperatively, without government, go have a freaking collective. But if they coerce us into one, it&#8217;s specifically to keep us from doing our individualist thing. Why can&#8217;t they see that?!</p>
<p>I just, really, maybe I&#8217;m giving them too much benefit of the doubt, but I&#8217;m not sure I can imagine people I do think of as friends thinking that it would just be darn happy to force we to do something contrary to my inner self and needs. But maybe they would. I don&#8217;t know. I tend to trust no one (except very close family), and expect everyone is going to stab me in the back sometime. Sad, huh? (Apparently that&#8217;s just the INTJ way&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Warbiany</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2009/08/12/can-the-country-survive/#comment-68763</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Warbiany</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 15:46:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=6610#comment-68763</guid>
		<description>Thomas,

Thanks for the comment. One point of disagreement, though. It&#039;s not a fight between the productive and the looters per se. It&#039;s a battle of principles over the moral validity of looting itself. There are plenty of productive people who are collectivists, who see themselves as subservient to the &quot;common good&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thomas,</p>
<p>Thanks for the comment. One point of disagreement, though. It&#8217;s not a fight between the productive and the looters per se. It&#8217;s a battle of principles over the moral validity of looting itself. There are plenty of productive people who are collectivists, who see themselves as subservient to the &#8220;common good&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: thomasblair</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2009/08/12/can-the-country-survive/#comment-68761</link>
		<dc:creator>thomasblair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 12:14:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=6610#comment-68761</guid>
		<description>Excellent article. This is the primary political divide - those who make their living via productivity vs. those who make their living via parasitism. Like you (and many others) have said, it&#039;s a fundamental difference in first principles.

It has parallels with the abortion debate that Megan McArdle talked about a few months back. The whole debate really boils down to whether the fetus is its own life or not - a fundamental difference in first principles. Those who think it is and those who think it is not must fight tooth and nail because the final decision is applied to everyone nationally.

Good post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent article. This is the primary political divide &#8211; those who make their living via productivity vs. those who make their living via parasitism. Like you (and many others) have said, it&#8217;s a fundamental difference in first principles.</p>
<p>It has parallels with the abortion debate that Megan McArdle talked about a few months back. The whole debate really boils down to whether the fetus is its own life or not &#8211; a fundamental difference in first principles. Those who think it is and those who think it is not must fight tooth and nail because the final decision is applied to everyone nationally.</p>
<p>Good post.</p>
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