As for “left” and “right” being qualities of lower level discussion, you’re probably right. It pops out whenever I’m not left with more intricate vernacular.

So Cuba might be ripe with preservation of the pre-Revolution culture, but the fruits of modernity will be absent. Capitalism isn’t the whole puzzle, but it is part of it. Marx himself got this, if I interpret him correctly.

Also, since you’re now admitting that we’re all over the MidEast for oil, that sort of debunks your earlier conspiracy assertion that this entire Western-MidEast struggle is not religion based.

I’m just ribbing you about using the word “conspiracy.” Too many people pin their version of journalistic integrity on the group-think that international and indeed global conspiracies do not exist on this Earth. I do not value the concepts of “left” and “right”, outside of lower level discussions. Zinn I would characterize as a “leftist” and beg my pardon I would never check out another of his debates after seeing what the man was about many years ago.

Zinn however did have some incidentally enlightening observations of other countries in his lifetime. Like what he said of Cuba was interesting.

You are very, very rash and naive of your assessment of Arab populations. Arabs are not stupid people, even at the unwashed level of their populations with little access to anything. If anything, they are much more rooted in reality than the United States’ population. And their ruling elite class is just as shrewd and aware and intelligent as any other.

I would asset that both Cuba and Arab “culture” are far deeper and intricate than the “culture” of the United States. And yes I do understand that I’m comparing the culture of a nation-state vs. the culture of a race (in the Arab case), but I’m saying that even if you took the U.S. population on a regional-racial-historic perspective, Cuba and the Middle East kicks the U.S.’s ass in culture. Culture in the aggregate is not Hollywood, televison, disposable material goods. I mean, technically it is but it’s basically shit.

Being a cultural and intellectual backwater is a big reason why the Middle East is the way it is. Outsiders don’t want to be any part of it except in order to obtain oil, and don’t see it as much of an investment opportunity in any other avenue.

Many of the problem spots in the world are a result of the chopping up of regions by colonial powers after World War I.

“Oh, and look at a current map of US military bases in the Middle East (particularily in Iraq and Afghanistan) and our final “goal” becomes evident. This ain’t about religion.”

There’s of course a direct oil interest in our involvement in the Middle East. Western powers such as ours don’t have a mandate from God, however, to preside over the rest of the world and blaming us for their failures can only go so far. To embrace an enlightenment path would place Middle Eastern societies on a path to being a shot-caller in the game of international economic warfare, instead of in the place of weakness they are at now.

Isn’t it these same prosperous societies, through vehicles like the World Bank and the IMF, that force these smaller, less-prosperous countries to do their economic and political bidding? It is much easier to ensure a that a nation will remain able to seek knowledge and portray themselves as enlightened when most other poor countries are beholden to the former in some way.

BTW, wasn’t some of these Islamic countries like Iraq the direct creation of Western economic interests like the Anglo-Iranian Petroleum Company (now known as British Petroleum)? Its hard to put all their economic woes on “bad religon” when so many Western hands have played a part in the these countries’ current turmoils.

Oh, and look at a current map of US military bases in the Middle East (particularily in Iraq and Afghanistan) and our final “goal” becomes evident. This ain’t about religon.

The thing is, since so many military assets are overseas and this is the stated goal is to conquer regional assets, part of the small “theatre” is going to try to play up religious importance. It’s not going to work in the U.S. They missed the whole “religious war” potential in our population about 30 years ago. Something more substantial is going to be needed to pull off the war, just simple action. But no doubt you don’t deploy the amount and breadth of assets in middle Asia as we have done, without a final goal. This is regardless if the goal is shared with the population.