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	<title>Comments on: Does Gay Marriage Imperil Free Speech?</title>
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	<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2011/07/21/does-gay-marriage-imperil-free-speech/</link>
	<description>Life. Liberty. Property. Defending individual freedom and liberty, one post at a time.</description>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2011/07/21/does-gay-marriage-imperil-free-speech/#comment-78042</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2011 20:29:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=9506#comment-78042</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Brad,
in re your final paragraph, you have formed an opinion based on reading something that I admit I have not read. I hope that is the basis for your believing him to be a bigot.
I agree wholeheartedly that all humans have the tendency to form beliefs and then look for reasons to support them. I agree also that it is very difficult not to do that.
If all you mean by &quot;conservative&quot; is cautious skepticism of wholesale changes, then I agree that mine is a conservative approach.
Thank you for your attention. I&#039;ve enjoyed the discussion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad,<br />
in re your final paragraph, you have formed an opinion based on reading something that I admit I have not read. I hope that is the basis for your believing him to be a bigot.<br />
I agree wholeheartedly that all humans have the tendency to form beliefs and then look for reasons to support them. I agree also that it is very difficult not to do that.<br />
If all you mean by &#8220;conservative&#8221; is cautious skepticism of wholesale changes, then I agree that mine is a conservative approach.<br />
Thank you for your attention. I&#8217;ve enjoyed the discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Warbiany</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2011/07/21/does-gay-marriage-imperil-free-speech/#comment-78040</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Warbiany</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2011 20:02:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=9506#comment-78040</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Phil,

I don&#039;t believe that everyone who advocates against gay marriage is, by definition, a bigot.  I believe your position is wrong (for the reasons I advocated), but it sounds as if you&#039;re coming at it more from a conservative point of view where we shouldn&#039;t necessarily make wholesale changes that might cause big downstream negative effects unless we&#039;re sure the world can deal with those effects.

I *do*, however believe that bigotry is one of the most common causes of holding the anti-gay-marriage position.  As with many other positions, many people who come to an ideological position from a place of bigotry use plausible rational arguments to justify their position.

Reams of social psychology studies can show that people can rationalize their way into the position they already want to hold quite easily.  Breaking out of that psychological tendency is *VERY* hard to do, *even* when you&#039;re aware the phenomenon exists.  I&#039;m sure I hold positions I&#039;ve rationalized myself into, even though I try very hard to guard against it and to evaluate evidence on its merits.  

However, all that aside, I think the target of my entire post was Gary Bauer.  And I believe him, specifically, to be a bigot.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t believe that everyone who advocates against gay marriage is, by definition, a bigot.  I believe your position is wrong (for the reasons I advocated), but it sounds as if you&#8217;re coming at it more from a conservative point of view where we shouldn&#8217;t necessarily make wholesale changes that might cause big downstream negative effects unless we&#8217;re sure the world can deal with those effects.</p>
<p>I *do*, however believe that bigotry is one of the most common causes of holding the anti-gay-marriage position.  As with many other positions, many people who come to an ideological position from a place of bigotry use plausible rational arguments to justify their position.</p>
<p>Reams of social psychology studies can show that people can rationalize their way into the position they already want to hold quite easily.  Breaking out of that psychological tendency is *VERY* hard to do, *even* when you&#8217;re aware the phenomenon exists.  I&#8217;m sure I hold positions I&#8217;ve rationalized myself into, even though I try very hard to guard against it and to evaluate evidence on its merits.  </p>
<p>However, all that aside, I think the target of my entire post was Gary Bauer.  And I believe him, specifically, to be a bigot.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2011/07/21/does-gay-marriage-imperil-free-speech/#comment-78034</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:28:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=9506#comment-78034</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Brad, 
My primary point was objecting to labeling someone a bigot simply because they oppose some proposed political action. Secondarily, I was citing myself as an example of a non-bigot, and trying to explain my reasons for opposing a sweeping reversal of all historic precedent.
Again, you have every right to believe that your preferred approach to change is the better one. And I promise not to call you a bigot, or a [quote] &quot;libertarian&quot; or question your motives in any way, just because we differ.
I might even agree that there should be no laws whatsoever regarding marriage, but I would have to think that one through much more thoroughly than I am prepared to do for purposes of this particular blog.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad,<br />
My primary point was objecting to labeling someone a bigot simply because they oppose some proposed political action. Secondarily, I was citing myself as an example of a non-bigot, and trying to explain my reasons for opposing a sweeping reversal of all historic precedent.<br />
Again, you have every right to believe that your preferred approach to change is the better one. And I promise not to call you a bigot, or a [quote] &#8220;libertarian&#8221; or question your motives in any way, just because we differ.<br />
I might even agree that there should be no laws whatsoever regarding marriage, but I would have to think that one through much more thoroughly than I am prepared to do for purposes of this particular blog.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Warbiany</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2011/07/21/does-gay-marriage-imperil-free-speech/#comment-78029</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Warbiany</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2011 17:55:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=9506#comment-78029</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Phil,

&lt;blockquote&gt;My objection is based purely on the word “marriage”.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I personally believe that government &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/03/14/civil-unions-and-multiple-wives/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;shouldn&#039;t sanction &quot;marriage&quot; at all&lt;/a&gt;.  Let government give same-sex or opposite-sex couples a &quot;civil union&quot;, and leave the term &quot;marriage&quot; to the churches.

Barring that, though, if the government offers the legal sanction, I believe it&#039;s discriminatory to not offer it to same-sex couples.  Will there be some messy years of case law as some of the issues work themselves out?  Of course.  &lt;em&gt;But that&#039;s true any time laws are changed.&lt;/em&gt;  That&#039;s why we have courts.

The fact that it&#039;s not perfectly easy and clean is not an argument against offering the same legal rights and privileges to same-sex couples that are offered to opposite-sex couples: it&#039;s a cop-out.  It&#039;s a profoundly &quot;conservative&quot; argument that says that we shouldn&#039;t change anything until we can predict in excruciating detail ALL of the effects of the change.  But we can NEVER predict all of the effects.  Sometimes we have to ask whether the current law is right or wrong.  In this case I&#039;d contend that it&#039;s wrong, and if we change it, the messy work of hammering out the details is simply a price we pay for righting a wrong.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil,</p>
<blockquote><p>My objection is based purely on the word “marriage”.</p></blockquote>
<p>I personally believe that government <a href="http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/03/14/civil-unions-and-multiple-wives/" rel="nofollow">shouldn&#8217;t sanction &#8220;marriage&#8221; at all</a>.  Let government give same-sex or opposite-sex couples a &#8220;civil union&#8221;, and leave the term &#8220;marriage&#8221; to the churches.</p>
<p>Barring that, though, if the government offers the legal sanction, I believe it&#8217;s discriminatory to not offer it to same-sex couples.  Will there be some messy years of case law as some of the issues work themselves out?  Of course.  <em>But that&#8217;s true any time laws are changed.</em>  That&#8217;s why we have courts.</p>
<p>The fact that it&#8217;s not perfectly easy and clean is not an argument against offering the same legal rights and privileges to same-sex couples that are offered to opposite-sex couples: it&#8217;s a cop-out.  It&#8217;s a profoundly &#8220;conservative&#8221; argument that says that we shouldn&#8217;t change anything until we can predict in excruciating detail ALL of the effects of the change.  But we can NEVER predict all of the effects.  Sometimes we have to ask whether the current law is right or wrong.  In this case I&#8217;d contend that it&#8217;s wrong, and if we change it, the messy work of hammering out the details is simply a price we pay for righting a wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2011/07/21/does-gay-marriage-imperil-free-speech/#comment-78027</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2011 17:32:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=9506#comment-78027</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Clearly, Brad, you have the absolute right to your opinion that not allowing same sex marriage is government discrimination. But I believe that it does not necessarily follow that anyone who opposes same sex marriage is a bigot.
I object to same sex marriage. Not because I am homophobic. As the good old saying goes, some of my friends are homosexual. (In this case it is accurate.)
My objection is based purely on the word &quot;marriage&quot;. The term as used in the sense of viewing two individual humans as a single entity always, without exception (at least to my knowledge) has referred to a couple of folks of opposite gender. Thousands of laws have been written that deal with &quot;marriage&quot; under that assumption. It seems to me that those who support redefining marriage to include couples of the same sex have the burden of showing that none of those thousands of laws will be rendered nonsensical or, even worse, discriminatory in some other fashion.
I would not contest a series of laws written for &quot;civil unions&quot; that would provide rights for couples of any gender, that would be appropriate for allowing them to have the same &quot;privileges&quot; as opposite gender couples.
If there were no existing laws governing couple&#039;s being united in any fashion whatsoever, then I believe that any laws written should not be discriminatory. But that simply is not the situation. There are laws. And they have built-in assumptions of opposite sex couples.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clearly, Brad, you have the absolute right to your opinion that not allowing same sex marriage is government discrimination. But I believe that it does not necessarily follow that anyone who opposes same sex marriage is a bigot.<br />
I object to same sex marriage. Not because I am homophobic. As the good old saying goes, some of my friends are homosexual. (In this case it is accurate.)<br />
My objection is based purely on the word &#8220;marriage&#8221;. The term as used in the sense of viewing two individual humans as a single entity always, without exception (at least to my knowledge) has referred to a couple of folks of opposite gender. Thousands of laws have been written that deal with &#8220;marriage&#8221; under that assumption. It seems to me that those who support redefining marriage to include couples of the same sex have the burden of showing that none of those thousands of laws will be rendered nonsensical or, even worse, discriminatory in some other fashion.<br />
I would not contest a series of laws written for &#8220;civil unions&#8221; that would provide rights for couples of any gender, that would be appropriate for allowing them to have the same &#8220;privileges&#8221; as opposite gender couples.<br />
If there were no existing laws governing couple&#8217;s being united in any fashion whatsoever, then I believe that any laws written should not be discriminatory. But that simply is not the situation. There are laws. And they have built-in assumptions of opposite sex couples.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Warbiany</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2011/07/21/does-gay-marriage-imperil-free-speech/#comment-77851</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Warbiany</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jul 2011 17:11:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=9506#comment-77851</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[tkc,

Ray obviously didn&#039;t read [or didn&#039;t understand] the post.

Ray,

I am in support of gay marriage.  The purpose of this post was criticizing Gary Bauer for his confused and ridiculous claims about the nature of free speech.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>tkc,</p>
<p>Ray obviously didn&#8217;t read [or didn't understand] the post.</p>
<p>Ray,</p>
<p>I am in support of gay marriage.  The purpose of this post was criticizing Gary Bauer for his confused and ridiculous claims about the nature of free speech.</p>
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		<title>By: tkc</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2011/07/21/does-gay-marriage-imperil-free-speech/#comment-77848</link>
		<dc:creator>tkc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jul 2011 15:21:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=9506#comment-77848</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Huh?  Where is the support for the government rushing in to do something?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Huh?  Where is the support for the government rushing in to do something?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ray Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2011/07/21/does-gay-marriage-imperil-free-speech/#comment-77846</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jul 2011 13:57:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelibertypapers.org/?p=9506#comment-77846</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How about you just chill out and go about your business and stop asking government to rush in and prevent people you don&#039;t even know from doing something that doesn&#039;t effect you? Anyway, since when do conservatives decry the decisions of a business owner like in this case? Then you turn around and beg for government laws to help you stop other people from doing what they want. You&#039;re not conservatives. You&#039;re dominionists.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about you just chill out and go about your business and stop asking government to rush in and prevent people you don&#8217;t even know from doing something that doesn&#8217;t effect you? Anyway, since when do conservatives decry the decisions of a business owner like in this case? Then you turn around and beg for government laws to help you stop other people from doing what they want. You&#8217;re not conservatives. You&#8217;re dominionists.</p>
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