Why do I like the electoral college?
Because living in California, these people aren’t canceling out my vote.
Remember, those of you who worship at the altar of democracy, these people are actually allowed to vote. Hannitized, every last one of them.
It’s about individual rights, people, not about democracy. The former is an end, the […]
Over at Cafe Hayek, Don Boudreaux linked to his article discussing Bryan Caplan’s book, The Myth of the Rational Voter.
In the always-wonderful comments section, a commenter named Bret made this point:
So let me get this straight.
If I vote in a way that makes me feel fantastic and wonderful about myself and I really couldn’t care […]
There’s been a bit of deriliction of duty going on here at The Liberty Papers. I’ve been trying to keep track of happenings in Zimbabwe, but we’re now 25 days into an electoral nightmare in that nation, and I’ve not had the time to address it.
Zimbabwe has spent most of the last […]
I don’t know how to email you Brad, so I’ll ask the question here. Why hasn’t there been any commentary on the amazing results from Paraguay’s election (aside from the fact that there hasn’t been as much controversy with that election)? The job that the Colorado Party has been doing, while not having results as tragic as those of the Mugabe regime, has not yielded anything but poverty and opportunity for corrupt politicians. I suppose my reasons for asking are somewhat selfish (I have family in Asuncion), but I think an update is in order given that you mentioned it earlier.
Comment by Justin Bowen — April 23, 2008 @ 6:14 pm
Justin,
I can’t necessarily speak for the other contributors, but I’ve just been too busy. I’m not up to speed on the situation in Paraguay. In fact, I’m not sure I’ve ever mentioned it (I did a quick search of the archives, and didn’t see anything). I saw one article about it in this week’s Economist, but without an appreciation for the history, I just skimmed it.
Comment by Brad Warbiany — April 23, 2008 @ 9:11 pm
Justin,
I’ve been following the situation in Paraguay. Basically, you are correct the Colorado Party are basically a bunch of corrupt kleoptocrats. However, I don’t think the winner, Fernando Lugo, who is either a social democrat in the mold of Lula in Brazil and Bachelet in Chile or a neo-Marxist loudmouth in the mold of Hugo Chavez; depending on what you read, will do much for the country because he wants to redistribute wealth instead of creating wealth.
Fox News had a nice article a few days ago about how South African dockworkers refused to allow a ship filled with Chinese arms bound for Zimbabwe to be unloaded because they weren’t going to be seen as supporting Mugabe’s side in whatever happens:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351733,00.html
The man’s ship be sinking.
No matter what you think of John McCain, everything said in that video is entirely true and correct; and people should remember that whilst … I’ll be charitable and call it arguing… about politics for the next 7 months… and for the next forever for that matter.
[…] Chris @ The Liberty Papers […]
Pingback by Below The Beltway » Blog Archive » Something I Can Actually Agree With John McCain About — April 6, 2008 @ 12:12 pm
except for that fact that mccain’s sincerity and character deserves no respect whatsoever. and in my opinion, not even respect as a veteran, seeing as how he is focused on continuing me and my community toward doom.
Comment by oilnwater — April 6, 2008 @ 1:16 pm
If Bob Barr’s in the race, I see absolutely no reason to vote for McCain. McCain’s advocating the same foreign policy as Bush, and while he might be slightly better on economics than Dubya he’s just as bad or worse on civil liberties. No thanks.
I also found the “disagreements among friends” angle to be rather condescending.
Comment by UCrawford — April 6, 2008 @ 6:41 pm
McCain would be a slight improvement on civil liberties, I think, actually. At least he’s pretty vehemently against torture (although he’s backed down from that stance at times for political considerations). As much as his “National Greatness” conservatism appalls me, its emphasis on “honor” tends to work strongly against the “ends justify the means” logic that has so typified the Bush Presidency.
I actually think he would be worse than Bush on economic issues, though. Sure he would likely curtail pork, but we forget that what he calls “pork” (as opposed to what libertarians would call pork) is a minute portion of the federal budget. And although he would probably make a genuine (but ultimately terribly unsuccessful) effort to balance the federal budget, let’s not forget that we’d probably see a continued increase in the cost of our foreign policy and defense budget. Most importantly, though, McCain has long shown a willingness to interfere with business that would make even GWB blush.
Bottom line: McCain would be a significant improvement over Bush on civil liberties, as bad or slightly worse on economic issues, and equally bad on foreign policy issues. Which would make him a slight improvement overall.
Final side note. Andrew Sullivan has a link today that shows that 61% of historians rank GWB as the worst Prez ever - even worse than longtime crown-holder James Buchanan. Of course, most of these historians also rank FDR as one of the greats due to their irrational love for the New Deal and for abuse of executive power when it’s done to further liberal policies.
Mark,
He gives speeches about the evils of torture, but he was still in favor of the Military Commissions Act of 2006…therefore his opposition to torture appears to be only in theory. Also, he was the author of McCain-Feingold, which was nothing more than an attempt to make it more difficult to unseat incumbents in elections. And he’s a rampant anti-drug warrior, despite the fact that his wife is an addict (who also received preferential treatment from the government when she got caught). By those three examples alone, he’s a clear detriment our to civil liberties.
I believe he’ll be better than Bush on economics mainly because he seems supportive of free trade and more open immigration. It’s still not enough to make me want to vote for him, mainly because he’s in favor of those things because he seems to believe it will help a big government be more efficient.
Pass…especially since Bob Barr appears to be an option now.
Comment by UCrawford — April 6, 2008 @ 9:08 pm
Believe me, McCain is far, far from an option for me, as I’ve made pretty clear in the past. But GWB has set the bar for abuse of civil liberties at a level that someone with even a below-average sense of decency could reach. His opposition to torture, while weak, has at least been more than token. At least when he thought he could oppose it without paying a political price.
Anywho, there is one thing you said where I have to actually (gasp!) defend Bush: immigration. On that issue, it’s always seemed to me that he and McCain have been in lockstep. (Which makes sense since they’re both border-state Republicans, which I discuss at length here: http://publiusendures.blogspot.com/2008/04/they-took-ur-jerbs.html)(completely shameless self-plug). Neither of the two have gone as far as I would like on that issue, but they both tried to go as far as the political climate would allow. As it turned out, even that half-measure was defeated by the xenophobes. In fact, it probably cost Bush more hardcore GOP support than any other issue.
I will now return to my normal Bush-bashing.
Mark,
In fact, it probably cost Bush more hardcore GOP support than any other issue.
Not really…Bush didn’t start harping on immigration reform until after the Republicans lost Congress. After that, he just used it as a tool to bash Democrats (same with his health care proposal). Bush may or may not think more open borders are a good thing, but he certainly didn’t care enough about them to reform immigration when he had a friendly Congress…and the “anti-terror” measures that he’s put in place during his administration have done as much to drive away foreign investment, tourism, and legal immigrants as anything.
Seriously, besides giving empty speeches about how important immigrants are, what has Bush ever actually done to make this country more accessible to them?
Comment by UCrawford — April 7, 2008 @ 5:06 am
LOL…After it faded out at the end, the Voice should have piped back up with a quick reminder…
“Just don’t spend more than $2300.00 donating to your candidate for the cause of rational engagement or debate, otherwise we might have to Black bag your Ass…”
Add that last refrain in and that would be a perfect Mccain Ad…
Fair enough, although it’s worth noting that the strongest opposition to immigrant-friendly immigration reform has been coming from the GOP the last decade or so; by pushing for the guest worker program and whatnot at a time when Dems were ascendent, Bush was probably taking advantage of the only chance he had to get a decent reform bill through. There was never any party discipline on immigration, where Bush’s relatively immigrant-friendly views were in the distinct minority.
On a somewhat related note, people tend not to understand just how devastating his anti-terror policies on things like passports have been/will be to the cross-border economy in places like already-depressed Buffalo. IIRC (may be wrong), Condi Rice did what she could to fight it behind the scenes, but the rest of the Bushies just steamrolled it through.
Mark,
although it’s worth noting that the strongest opposition to immigrant-friendly immigration reform has been coming from the GOP the last decade or so; by pushing for the guest worker program and whatnot at a time when Dems were ascendent
Democrats oppose immigration mainly because unions oppose immigration and traditionally that’s one of the Dems’ biggest contributors. There wasn’t a chance in hell that immigration reform was going to go through with the Dems in charge and Bush knew it.
And considering that Bush pushed through several bills that went against Republican doctrine, I don’t buy that he couldn’t have gotten them to sign off on immigration if he’d really been behind it. Instead he chose to focus his efforts on bills to bribe voters.
On a somewhat related note, people tend not to understand just how devastating his anti-terror policies on things like passports have been/will be to the cross-border economy in places like already-depressed Buffalo.
I agree with you there. Just saw an article yesterday about Arizona’s crackdown on illegal immigration and how it’s making their state’s economic slowdown even worse. Unsurprisingly, one of the big movers behind the crackdown was our old buddy, Sheriff Joe Arpaio, who’s never let individual rights or the economic welfare of his constituents get in the way of his political grandstanding.
Honestly, the rabid anti-immigration folks just make me sick.
The relationship between unions and immigrants is a bit more complex than you’re giving it credit for. While they’re universally extremely protective on trade issues, they are quite split on immigration. Keep in mind that immigrants now make up a huge chunk of their membership in the service and agriculture industries and that union membership has been declining for decades. To the extent new immigrants are able to join unions, they are often more than willing to welcome them. If you look at Obama’s position on immigration, you’ll notice that it’s been rather popular with the Dem grassroots (though not so popular with white blue collar workers, but that’s another story altogether). Somewhere in the mid-90’s, the parties passed each other on the immigration issue. It’s still a somewhat divisive issue within each party, but Dems are definitely now more pro-immigration than Republicans.
I would respect McSame’s words more if I hadn’t actually been watching what he has been doing, and not doing, over the past 20 years.
Comment by MikeF — April 9, 2008 @ 5:46 pm
Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason? For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.
Ovid
One interesting question within political theory is the question of when armed rebellion against a government is justified. Most people that tackle this subject try to find some set of moral lines that a government must cross before […]
Outstanding post.
Ditto what UCrawford said.
Comment by Doug Mataconis — March 6, 2008 @ 9:05 am
Excellent post & a terrific counter to the brewing frustration with the left regarding a possible “armed” revolution. The GRU reference is also excellent; I for one always found Russian history particularly intriguing.
Comment by Nitroadict — March 6, 2008 @ 9:05 am
Konkin/Agorist Counter-Economics…
Sorry, i just noticed Brad’s thursday’s open thread…
Well said, and I think the Sun-Tzu and John Adams quotes you included have incredible force.
If the revolution is won before it is fought, it may never be “fought” at all.
Comment by Brad Warbiany — March 6, 2008 @ 10:16 am
You state that there is no legitimate government. I happen to agree; in fact I made this point in my philosophy of law class the other night when I asked why it was justifiable in the first place for a third party to carry out retribution on behalf of another (one of the basic functions of even a minimal state). My inquiry went unanswered.
Comment by David Wilson — March 6, 2008 @ 10:24 am
And yes, I do agree, this is a valuable post!
Comment by David Wilson — March 6, 2008 @ 10:27 am
Tarran,
Tremendous piece of writing. Well done!
Great post. And what a jackass quote from Bill Clinton.
Comment by Ben — March 6, 2008 @ 10:53 am
Great post, and I second the jackass quote from Comrade Clinton.
I remember, after the OK city bombing when all thoughs sweeping laws were being passed.I had a sticker on my car that said “I love my country but fear my Government”. And I still hold to that belief. I had a few people question me about that sticker and calling me “Un-American”. It’s moronic that the sheep will celebrat the 4th of July, but not understand what happened to get to that celebration.
But to answer your question, “When is Armed Rebellion Appropriate?”..First and foremost, you would have to “win the hearts and minds” with atleast a quarter of the people. Secondly, the State would have to do something truly alarming to the beer drinking, nascar watching moron, so atleast we have the people waking up. And last but not least, be armed to the teeth and to be prepared for a lasting Rebellion. Cause it couldn’t be just a few days.
A side note…I do watch Nascar. Was not meant to take offense.
Comment by RegularRon — March 6, 2008 @ 11:16 am
I would caution anyone who would want to begin or support an armed revolution against the government to study the French Revolution. There is always a chance that such actions can make matters worse, even if the revolution is successful. The French Revolution did not have the same success as the American Revolution. I would say that the outcome of the American Revolution is the exception, not the rule.
Even as bad as our government is at times (which we write about here on nearly a daily basis), we are still very free relative to most of the world. Freedom always yields to tyranny; it’s only a question of how rapidly it is allowed to happen. As a practical matter, we can only hope to slow this creeping tyranny to a level where we can work within the system. Armed revolution should always be the very last resort.
Great post Tarran!
Comment by Stephen Littau — March 6, 2008 @ 11:31 am
Stephen,
I would caution anyone who would want to begin or support an armed revolution against the government to study the French Revolution. There is always a chance that such actions can make matters worse, even if the revolution is successful. The French Revolution did not have the same success as the American Revolution. I would say that the outcome of the American Revolution is the exception, not the rule.
Excellent point. I’ve often wondered what it was that made the American Revolution different from the French Revolution, the Revolutions of 1848, the Russian Revolution, or any of the countless number of third-world revolts against colonialism after World War II.
It’s more, I think than just the fact that the American Colonies in the 18th Century were blessed with some incredibly wise men, though they clearly were. I think it comes down to the philosophical basis that they were working from.
The American revolutionaries had Smith and Locke and the writers that followed them. The French had who ? Voltaire ? In 1848 it was Marx. In Russia it was Marx and Lenin. And, in the third-world it was Marx, Lenin, and Ho Chi Minh.
When you build your revolution on a foundation of sand, it’s bound to fail in the end.
Comment by Doug Mataconis — March 6, 2008 @ 11:35 am
Doug,
I just finished with Atlas Shrugged the other day (what an excellent book!). I can’t help but wonder if the non-violent tactics John Galt and his fellow “men of the mind” used to change the system would work? Imagine if a large number of entrepreneurs, industrialists, investors, inventers, etc. went on strike in hopes that the entire economy went to hell? If such a thing could be organized, I think that it would not take very long before we would see sweeping changes in attitudes toward achievement, free markets, individualism, and wealth distribution/creation.
Comment by Stephen Littau — March 6, 2008 @ 11:44 am
Actually, RP did mention The Remnant in one of his videos, and further mentioned people being left behind that would be able to rebuild, although beyond that he didn’t mention anything specific. But yes, I also think it’s an interesting and potentially effective idea; I’d imagine it would definitely rally up the agorists.
I sadly have yet to read the book, but have read summaries of it. I still have an immense back log of books piled up on my desk as it is, although as of late, some of her quotations are convincing me to possibly put the fountainhead & AS higher up in the queue…
Comment by Nitroadict — March 6, 2008 @ 11:55 am
Nitroadict, 2 words: audio book :)
I listened to Atlas Shrugged about 1 hour a day at work on audio book (the abridged edition; 10 1/2 hours on 10 discs).
If you can listen at work or if you are taking a long road trip, this is the ideal time to listen. I simply do not have much spare time to read otherwise.
Comment by Stephen Littau — March 6, 2008 @ 11:59 am
Indeed, I recently decided to take the plunge with Rothbard via audio-book (For A New Liberty), and while I think reading would allow for more retention, it definitely is a time saver.
I’m thinking I might read The Fountainhead before reading AS, though. If there is an audio-book version of it, what version would you recommend?
Comment by Nitroadict — March 6, 2008 @ 12:04 pm
[…] Tarran at The Liberty Papers had a very insightful post regarding the appropriateness of armed rebellion. Tarran does address the improbability of an armed rebellion actually achieving its aims; my qualm with his argument is the contention that there would actually be a fight to begin with. This contention might be more applicable to the times when the gun barrels of oppressors were not that much bigger than those of the oppressed. […]
Pingback by Why nonviolence is not a choice | The Libertarium — March 6, 2008 @ 12:56 pm
[…] a comment to tarran’s post about the morality of armed rebellion, co-contributor Stephen Littau makes this point: I would caution anyone who would want to begin or […]
Pingback by The Liberty Papers »Blog Archive » Friday Open Thread — Why America ? — March 7, 2008 @ 5:43 am
Stephen Littau,
You should check ot The Free State Project:
Comment by dean — March 9, 2008 @ 4:30 pm
This blog has had a long and sordid history with the more ardent supporters of Ron Paul, as clearly evidenced in the comments to this post from yesterday.
Over the months leading up to the primaries and throughout the primaries, I’ve seen that those enthusiastic Paul supporters have often found it difficult to believe that Ron […]
What’s left for Ron Paul Supporters? Run for office themselves. If you think the Ron Paul Candidacy is about Ron Paul you are sorely mistaken.
Comment by Obvious Answer — March 6, 2008 @ 5:03 am
Impeachment of Bush or Cheney on the grounds of the illegal Iraq War will discredit all the lords of war from both parties, thus leaving the path open for the peacemakers, including Ron Paul.
The next step is to impeach….get onboard @ http://www.wexlerwantshearings.com/
Its about ending the “tyrant’s toolbox” created by Bush/Cheney.
Linda,
Based on what happened with Clinton, the impeachment process will take a year.
Bush and Cheney will be out of office in 320 days, why bother ?
And, more importantly, how would a politically charged impeachment process that, if successful just results in the ascension of the incompetent and extremely statist Speaker of the House to the Presidency help the cause for liberty ?
Comment by Doug Mataconis — March 6, 2008 @ 5:19 am
either way, I’m in. I would rather die fighting tyranny, than live under its rule. Peaceful or violent, it does’nt seem like they will allow a peacful movement, so far they have ignored the peaceful americans who want their country back. Maybe it IS time for us to show the established just what “We the people” are made of. Our founders would be ashamed of us for what we’re putting up with. Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, and our other fathers before us knew that there were some evils that just could not be reasoned with peacefully, therfore they had to take action, and its a good thing the French helped us out. Maybe if things get worse, which seems innevitable, there SHOULD be a rebellion. I know I would fight and die for my freedom, my country, my LIBERTY! would you?
Comment by El Capitan — March 6, 2008 @ 5:20 am
Between Doug Mataconis and Brad Warblany it would be hard to conclude that the Liberty Papers is truly about Liberty.
I suppose liar Doug Mataconis and pessimist Brad Warblany just need to set back and watch and follow up on the Ron Paul rEVOLUTION a year from now.
For starters I just won the local GOP Chair and Huckabee supporters, Mitt and Paul supporters all voted.
Did you notice what happened in Alaska?
By my count there are 28 on the east coast who are planning to run as Ron Paul Republicans.. I know of just over 19 who have filed and have started raising funds the rest are fence setters but are looking into it. I don’t know how many are planning the same idea who are from the Midwest or the West coast but someone who lives in CA has told me about 3 in his state alone and I visited there websites to confirm it.
What else are we doing??? Well, just set back and watch of you are welcome to join us Brad…. So tell us Brad what are you doing to help Ron Paul?
Comment by Darel — March 6, 2008 @ 5:23 am
It is a sad commentary on the dumbing down of America when the very concept of having someone in the Oval Office who wants only a Constitutional government is in the minority and even smeared as being crazy.
What we are doing is continuing to advocate for Dr. Paul and 2 particular bills which he has introduced in Congress, that will make legal again for Americans to use Consitutional coinage, which once instituted will help bring an end to the runnaway inflation/stagflation that is now beginning to raise havoc with our consumer driven, oil based economy.
Many are also considering the bold move of running for office on a Constitutional government platform. Having more members of Congress with the integrity and courage to vote with Dr. Paul, can, in time, bring back a balance. Today the incumbents in Congress have one thing on their minds…staying in power and voting in lockstep for whatever the Republicrat party leadership dictate.
Also, I note for the record that Ron Paul is still on the ballot, still campaigning and there ready to step in, should anything happen to John McCain. History has a way of repeating itself, and I would not be surprised to see between now and the August convention, events come to light, or health issues arise that would trigger McCain’s withdrawal of his candidacy. Look at his age, the recently exposed nefarious behavior with the attractive female lobbist,and his wheeling and dealing on behalf of big doners. He is not very smart, so look for him to make some mistakes, look for his temper to turn to a public rage at some point, look for news of his steriod use, or human growth hormone. In short, look for the wannabee commander in chief to slip from grace and for Ron Paul to be on hand to pick up the flag.
I’ll be running for public office as a Libertarian.
Comment by Deeptoad — March 6, 2008 @ 5:59 am
I was an Election Clerk in my precinct and I saw no problems with the voting process. I was there from 6:30 AM until after the precinct conventions. I voted for Ron Paul, but the majority of people in my precinct did not. They voted for McCain and then Huckabee. Democracy is built on the will of the people. We all think Ron Paul is the best, but unfortunately the American people as a whole do not. It is time to accept that and move on.
I will direct my energy to helping build support for issues that matter to us all within the Republican party. Issues like fiscal conservatism and liberty. I hope you all will do the same. Ron Paul has been doing this for over 30-years. If he has the patience for it. So do I.
JOhn
Comment by John Peterson — March 6, 2008 @ 6:02 am
John,
Democracy is built on the will of the people. We all think Ron Paul is the best, but unfortunately the American people as a whole do not. It is time to accept that and move on.
Thank you, this is exactly what people need to realize.
Comment by Doug Mataconis — March 6, 2008 @ 6:04 am
Darel,
Well, just set back and watch of you are welcome to join us Brad…. So tell us Brad what are you doing to help Ron Paul?
Why do Brad, or I, or anyone else have to “help Ron Paul” ?
This isn’t about one man, it’s about liberty.
Comment by Doug Mataconis — March 6, 2008 @ 6:08 am
I’ll vote Libertarian in the general. Thought about sitting it out, still might. Doesn’t send much of a message to just not vote. But a strong message could be sent if Ron or if some respected member of the so called revolution would come out and make an official endorsement of a third party candidate. That way the number for that party would reflect the will of the RP supporters.
All of this is going to be rendered irrelevant though because I’m becoming increasingly convinced the world has already reached “Peak Oil”. In which case whomever is elected is going to be facing utter chaos in epic proportions before the end of their first term.
have a nice day :)
Comment by jim — March 6, 2008 @ 6:22 am
Darel,
As I pointed out in the post, I don’t believe that Ron Paul’s loss is a symptom that the entire process has been hijacked by the neocons or the bilderbergers, so my plan is to help take the movement that was built around Ron Paul and harness it to pro-liberty topics that are unrelated to Ron Paul getting into the White House.
That said, I’m in favor of the “Ron Paul Republican” concept, just as I’m in favor of the “Republican Liberty Caucus”. Both are great ways to identify pro-freedom candidates, and the former is specifically a great way to capitalize on what Ron Paul has done.
Darel, I would point out that you’re doing exactly what I would expect a sane Ron Paul supporter to do: picking up after his loss and moving on. Take a look at some of the other commenters to this post, though. Clay seems to think Ron Paul may still win (I’ll believe it when I see it), Linda seems to think impeaching Bush will do good (when it will probably just result in another statist Democrat reaping the benefits), and El Capitan is ready to take up arms (although that’s comforting to say from behind a keyboard, I doubt it’ll happen).
As Doug points out, I don’t see that there’s any use in doing anything to “help” Ron Paul at this point. He won his Congressional primary, and he’s not going to be President. The key now is to use the positive aspects of his campaign, the way that a large grassroots following occurred around him, and turn that into a real change. The Ron Paul Republicans can help to do that; bitching about impeachment, continuing to believe he just might win, or armed rebellion won’t do that.
Comment by Brad Warbiany — March 6, 2008 @ 6:25 am
It’s never been about Paul, it’s always been the message! The thought that it’s all “Paul worship” is silly. Just because you support a guy who shares your goals does not mean that those who support him think he is the second coming. That rhetoric has been perpetuated by those who are not Paul supporters (i.e. calling supporters a “Cult”, ect..). The same thing happens with any candidate.
Where do we go from here? Well since the “movement” has been around a lot longer than Ron Paul has been on YOUR lips (or finger tips), we will continue to try to have the rule of law enforced (i.e. the Constitution), and help America be the nation respected and loved again. Fantasy to some who have given up on America already but it’s something that must be done or the entire world falls.
There is something ALL of the anti-Paul/anti-Constitution people need to realize, the movement picked up Paul NOT Paul created a movement. You are still stuck in a “top down” mentality that only those on high (”leaders”) can create a movement. That is why you have no idea why people support him and cannot understand the message.
Most of us in this movement see how you are trying to goad us into some violent confrontation so we can finally be rounded up and put out of your misery. It’s not going to work, this is a peaceful revolution and it’s not a lighthearted endeavor.
If you are ever placed in front of a jury of your peers (if we still have those), you should hope and pray that there are Ron Paul supporters on that Jury. Otherwise it WILL be guilty until proven innocent. Think about that one.
Comment by Mythic Mystic — March 6, 2008 @ 6:27 am
Democracy is built on the will of the people. We all think Ron Paul is the best, but unfortunately the American people as a whole do not. It is time to accept that and move on.
“I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America; and to the REPUBLIC..”
What part of we do not live in a democracy did you not understand? I hate when people say our democracy. Which school did you go to? If your going to be involved in our REPUBLIC at least know what you are talking about. I will NOT sit idly by and succumb to tyranny. I will die fighting before I live under that rule.
Comment by Valeria — March 6, 2008 @ 7:11 am
all think Ron Paul is the best, but unfortunately the American people as a whole do not. It is time to accept that and move on.
“I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America; and to the REPUBLIC..”
What part of we do not live in a democracy did you not understand? I hate when people say our democracy. Which school did you go to? If your going to be involved in our REPUBLIC at least know what you are talking about. I will NOT sit idly by and succumb to tyranny. I will die fighting before I live under that rule.
Comment by Valeria — March 6, 2008 @ 7:13 am
Mythic Mystic,
It’s never been about Paul, it’s always been the message! The thought that it’s all “Paul worship” is silly.
Unfortunately I don’t have time to look this up (maybe one of my co-bloggers might help me out here), but comments to posts at this blog and elsewhere have been left with sayings such as “Ron Paul is our last hope”, “Ron Paul is the only man who can put an end to x, y, z”. I tried to be clear in my post that this isn’t all Ron Paul supporters, only the most adamant.
Most of us in this movement see how you are trying to goad us into some violent confrontation so we can finally be rounded up and put out of your misery.
I am not trying to do so. I’m asking the Ron Paul supporters what is next? This question is also specifically leveled at the people who believe this is about Ron Paul and NOT about a wider movement. The statements they’ve made have backed them into a corner.
I personally am a big fan of the agorism option (not related to Ron Paul specifically, but in general for our society). One of my goals in writing this blog is to do my part to erase the legitimacy of the system, because only if we convince the masses that the system is fraudulent and harmful to their ends can we change it.
Comment by Brad Warbiany — March 6, 2008 @ 8:13 am
either way, I’m in. I would rather die fighting tyranny, than live under its rule. Peaceful or violent, it does’nt seem like they will allow a peacful movement, so far they have ignored the peaceful americans who want their country back. Maybe it IS time for us to show the established just what “We the people” are made of. Our founders would be ashamed of us for what we’re putting up with. Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, and our other fathers before us knew that there were some evils that just could not be reasoned with peacefully, therfore they had to take action, and its a good thing the French helped us out. Maybe if things get worse, which seems innevitable, there SHOULD be a rebellion. I know I would fight and die for my freedom, my country, my LIBERTY! would you? This is a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC!…but we’re losing it.
Comment by El Capitan — March 6, 2008 @ 8:24 am
Most who support any “Candidate of choice” will always say their candidate is the only one that would put an end to or solve “x,y,z”. I find that whole argument mute and sort of backwards thinking. I hear Obama supporters, Clinton supporters, hard core McCainiacs saying the same thing (their candidate is the ONLY ONE that will solve x, y, z.) About Dr. Paul, he WAS the only one that promoted more liberty for all. That is not worship but an observation. Who else was against the war (regardless of which way you think on that), the IRS (actually has introduced legislation, however doomed, to abolish it), and against the distructuion of our constitution and civil liberties? All of these are observations and not “Paul-Worship”. I mean even if he wasn’t serious about those points, who else mentioned those things? Just observations.
Those new to the movement of Liberty probably have don’t know what to do next since their “leader” hasn’t made it to POTUS, but those of us who have been in the liberty movement longer than Paul has been in congress knows this could be (and will be) a long (perhaps forever) struggle. We have made great strides in making people aware of what is going on in our nation and the world.
The unfortuante thing is the “agorism” model has been performed on us already. That is what has happend. A “leagal” government has replaced our “Lawful” government and is and has convinced the masses that the “Lawful” government is a fraudulent, outdated, isolationist weakness and is harmful to their security. LOL, Liberty harmful to security!! Can anything be farther from the truth. I do agree with you though that some people open their mouths before they open their minds.
Comment by Mythic Mystic — March 6, 2008 @ 8:39 am
Valeria, I think the point concerning moving on is not so much submitting to the tyranny of the majority (democracy), so much as working with the majority and changing the “tyranny” to your advantage in the process of political change, specifically the local level.
Albeit, I’m sympathetic to the argument of democracy being nothing more than a more evolved or recent version of the same type of tyranny we’ve experienced under other different rules; especially due to recent conversations over at the mises forum. In fact, it hasn’t stopped me from considering maybe something different from democracy is needed.
However, I hardly see the phrase “die fighting”, implying a pre-mature (at this point) physical revolt, against a democracy that, while not perfect, is what we have now and is prone to produce favorable results sometimes, especially on the local levels.
I think the call for RP?followers to become more Agoristic (I suppose that’s a word now) is right on the money concerning how the grassroots showed that technology is indeed catching up the possibility of a counter movement/economy/community being able to pick up steam & make a mark.
Interestingly, I’m already reading of rather unexpected effects that the campaign’s failure (I would say literal failure, perhaps not idealogical) is already having. One prime effect is the renewed questioning of the relevance of the Libertarian Party, and whether abolishing it would be beneficial to the Libertarian cause (thus far, the arguments*, to me, are persuasive).
[*You can read more of that in the following links: http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/916, http://www.thirdpartywatch.com/2008/03/04/not-so-great-brains-dont-think-alike-either/, and http://blog.6thdensity.net/?p=909. ]
Another effect, of which is extremely evident on this site, is the debate concerning alleged race-baiting, neo-confederate / confederate sympathizing, and even racist elements attributed to alleged figures (Rockwell, Rothbard, figures in the RP?campaign, the role of more radical supporters that support either the 911 truth movement, etc. etc.). It may be an ugly debate, but it’s imperative for any future national inroads towards change to occur.
Personally, I think the whole cosmo/paleo/whatever divide online amidst Cato / Reason / Mises / Rockwell / whatever, will be more challenging, if not indirectly related to the aforementioned race-baiting debate.
In any case, I tend to take the whole thing (a possible Libertarian movement “crisis”)in a historical perspective, for consider these few things:
1.) Before Libertarianism became marginalized (obviously, people would vary when this happened), we did not have the immense decentralized power of communication of the Internet.
Only in the last decade and a half, actually, has the Internet been a mass market commodity, and already we can see the effects. If nothing else, if Libertarians could ensure that The Internet (or at least an Internet) remains relatively preserved as such a communication tool, I think half the battle (for minds, anyways) is won.
2.) The RP campaign, despite it’s failure, did in fact bring back in the once following alien terms to the mainstream: Libertarianism, blowback, Austrian economics, etc.
Many people would debate the exposure was more negative rather than positive, but I was always under the impression of “there’s no such thing as bad publicity”. Obviously, the race-baiting debate would throw a hypothetical monkey wrench in that phrase, but that is course assuming there was a vacuum on the subject.
This obviously not true; there is more than plenty of debate going around, whether intentional or non-intentional.
&
3.) Many things, such as the effects of Centralized Banking, a fiat currency, are coming to an historical head, and with the above 2 points in mind, make it far more likely than ever that more attention will be paid to different alternatives to said problems.
The same could be said in regards to civics; the fallout of 911, continuing occupation in Iraq, the do-nothing administration apologists in Congress, increasing calls for bi-partisanship (imo, further highlighting the lack of differences between the two major parties), one of the most abusive administrations in history: all of those are contributing to people looking out for alternatives to what they are used to. Not all obviously, but enough to contribute to a long term difference.
If nothing else, things will become more interesting and are changing faster than I think some of us (myself included) can see, for the time being. Other’s may lambaste this site all they want (mostly out of what I see as short-sighted, naive idealism), but it is contributing to the public dialog just as much as insulting it for doing so contributes to the dialog.
I for one am thankful that we do not have to waste time with fumbling with letters for an archaic newsletter via the mail (nostalgic value not withstanding), or deal with terribly delayed correspondence.
Then again, flame wars were possibly more easily avoided since you could actually burn the papers themselves, but I digress.
Stay Classy, Liberty Paper Critics.
Comment by Nitroadict — March 6, 2008 @ 8:59 am
I don’t think that Ron Paul’s campaign was the only one treated unfairly by the “establishment”.
The people with the cash had their candidates primed and ready to go. Once it was clear that Ron Paul’s message was beginning to gain major traction, they set the demolition wheels to work.
This has been happening for years and years and not just to Ron Paul.
George Washington warned of the dangers of a two party system and now we’re living it.
What do we do? “We the people” must unite in a way that we have never done before. We need to deregulate our political system and allow for more voices to be heard and taken seriously.
Comment by Seth M — March 6, 2008 @ 9:14 am
There are a few less nefarious reasons why Ron Paul didn’t do as well as we had hoped:
1. Too many pro-liberty Americans have already dropped out of the system, by not registering to vote, not turning out for the primaries, not investigating the candidates themselves, and not getting involved. Ron Paul reversed that to some extent, but there is a lot of defeatism to overcome.
2. Too many people who liked Ron Paul and his message didn’t vote for him, because they wanted their votes to “count”. In Michigan exit polls for example, 12% said Ron Paul was the candidate best able to effect needed change, but only 6% voted for him! In New Hampshire, anti-war Republicans voted for McCain over Paul.
Even if Ron Paul only had 5% national support, it would have been enough voters to win the nomination, if they had all registered as Republicans on time, and voted in the primaries, since primary turnout is so low. Even in a year with “high” turnout like this time, less than 20% of Republicans voted in most states, Republicans are only 1/3 of the registered voters, and only half the eligible population is registered. About 3% of the population is picking the Republican nominee.
People have far more power than they realize, but for the most part they don’t even try to use it.
Comment by Craig — March 6, 2008 @ 9:15 am
The Revolution continues with or without Ron Paul. Ron Paul accomplised exactly what he set out to do - ignite the brush fire in people’s minds.
I now understand the monetary system and the desperate need for competing currencies. Europeans have had the advantage for years. I understand the hidden inflation tax imposed on us by the FED and why the FED is unconstitutional.
I understand why we need to abolish the unconstitutional IRS. I know the IRS is a private collection company and NOT a government agency.
I understand that all of the revenue the IRS collects goes to pay the interest on the debt. Interest charged to the American people by the Federal Reserve for the privilage of printing our fiat money.
I will continue to spread the word and educate other American citizens.
I will continue until every jury returns a verdict of NOT GUILTY for Federal Income Tax evasion, and puts the IRS out of business.
We will shed so much sunlight on the FED and IRS vampires that they will no longer be able to suck the liberty, peace and prosperity out of the lives of the American people.
Comment by MME — March 6, 2008 @ 9:15 am
The good news for Ron Paul supporters is that the current system will eventually be eaten away from the inside by its own rottenness. People will always seek liberty over oppression. The bad news as that it appears the oppression will last a bit longer than many of us had hoped. Eventually Dr Paul will be vindicated. The only thing that remains to be seen is how much unnecessary suffering will be endured by all until then.
Comment by Dwight — March 6, 2008 @ 9:32 am
Indeed, Ron Paul did ignite the brush fire, and it’s up to us to keep fanning the flames.
It’s not about one election cycle, and it’s not about Ron Paul the man; the brush fire is fueled by the ideas that Ron Paul has promoted so eloquently for thirty-plus years.
The grassroots volunteers who have coalesced around the Ron Paul campaign will keep talking about the ideas of freedom and a return to Constitutional government. These concepts are popular and resonate with many. We will prevail. We will change the world.
Comment by logicprobe — March 6, 2008 @ 9:45 am
YES, MME you got it exactly right! right on! we WILL prevail. and for those who keep refering to this as a democracy, you neeed to get yourself some education…this country was founded a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC! LOOK IT UP. MME was right about the Ron Paul effect. peace.
Comment by El Capitan — March 6, 2008 @ 9:46 am
I have been asking folks for over a year what they think of Dr. Ron Paul and in well over 90% of the time they have never heard of him. That is a fact. Once I explain his positions they respond favorably. Of course the MSM is opposed to his ideas as freedom is not in their best interest. But the campaign has to take some responsibility. There were areas where he won the popular vote, such as Spokane. My guess is that it was the work on the ground. And, that is probably where all of the $ should have gone in order to reach those who only get there information from the TV.
Comment by DX10 — March 6, 2008 @ 10:00 am
The hardest part for us Paulites will not be to stay united and build our movement …. it will be to figure out a way to make the rest of America realize that they have been infected with a virus that causes them to feel a false sense of security & serenity. What I believe our priority shoud be is to somehow demonstrate how demonic Main Stream Media is, especially when it comes to “broadcast media”. What do people really contemplate when they are about to lay out thousands and thousands of their hard earned dollars for the “newest generation of brain washing devices” disguised as flat screen HDTV’s. Do they understand that all this is is “media hype”? … Does it even cross their minds that this very expensive piece of technology will be obsolete before they turn it on for the first time? … Do they consider that if it ever stops working their only option is to throw it away? … Do they contemplate the hundreds of billions of dollars that have been invested into this medium of “entertainment” in terms of the effects of involuntary psychological, subliminal, physical, emotional and subconscious thought processes that have such a tremendous influence & impact on our daily lives. From talk shows to infomercials, commercials to news magazine shows, new reports late night movies… all of it! Every micro second of every minute of every hour …. our brains are bombarded with influential suggestions, subliminal messages, marketing data, political & religious prosthelitizing, what to buy, what to eat, what to wear, where to live, what to say & how to say it, what to think & what not to, who’s voice you will hear & who’s you won’t. Throw them away! Don’t give them away or sell them on e-bay…. destroy them! cancel your cable & satellite contracts …. you wanna do something for the environment ??? Stop buying newspapers and magazines … they’re POISON! 97% of ALL U.S. MEDIA IS OWNED BY 5 CORPORATIONS. THAT INCLUDES RADIO, TV, PRINT, MOVIES, DVD, CD, BILLBOARDS ….ALL OF IT! They are controlling our every thought and our every action and our every re-action. I urge everyone to do this. Google “Who Owns America’s Media”. You may & then you may not be that surprised. But after your read about it there will be no question in your own mind what today’s world events are all about and more importantly … who!
Comment by ricknhouston — March 6, 2008 @ 10:14 am
What is this poor little blog going to do?, You guys will fade into obsucrity, Doug you really are a bottom feeder, People need to accept the masses are just greedy and corupt as the government. It is not over yet. You and the Media said we were just a bunch of fringe nut cases and racists, Know with that said If I was McShame I would buy a Pope mobile, Because Its not over till your fat wife sings. remeber what Nathan Hale said, I regret that I have but one Life to give for my country. Now with that said. I going to get some Waves, I am tired of talking about the Fall of the American Empire.
Comment by RaferJanders — March 6, 2008 @ 10:15 am
RaferJanders, I think you are the perfect example of why this “little blog” tends to not take people such as yourself too seriously on such matters, when you utilize personal attacks as a basis for something vaguely resembling a cogent argument / flame.
If the masses are greedy, at least they aren’t nearly as elitist and close-minded as you appear to be.
Corrupt is as corrupt does; I personally find your lack of insight and assumptive attitude toward the peoples of this nation rather corrupt to the notions reason & civility.
That being said, as long as you keep posting this blog, contributing to the debate & dialog, I hardly see how it’ll fade into obscurity anytime soon ;).
Comment by Nitroadict — March 6, 2008 @ 10:33 am
ratings, ratings, ratings… hits, hits, hits…
Comment by oilnwater — March 6, 2008 @ 10:37 am
M-M-M-M-Max Headroom would be proud.
Comment by Nitroadict — March 6, 2008 @ 11:00 am
Doug give it up dude, just face it, after the election no one will continue to come to your shitty blog anymore with you and your fan club, you have no credibility in the alternative media, you are an enforcer of the status quo and business as usual, you make me fucking sick, since you so fucking gung ho about the war on terror and the war in iraq why dont you go fight you fucking chicken hawk cowardly scum!!
Comment by Max — March 6, 2008 @ 11:02 am
Yes Max, I will truly, truly miss the insightful comments and erudite logic of the Paulistians that have visited over the past year ;)
Of course, I grew up in New Jersey and miss Newark so that’s not saying much.
Comment by Doug Mataconis — March 6, 2008 @ 11:06 am
Oh and Max, for an example of what we talk about around here other than Ron Paul, check out these posts:
http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/03/06/when-is-armed-rebellion-appropriate/
and
I actually am beginning to think that the quality of writing, and comments, is better when we’re not talking about old news.
Comment by Doug Mataconis — March 6, 2008 @ 11:08 am
Sorry doug, I like many other people here only come here because you write about Ron Paul, while its about the message and not Ron Paul, Ron Paul has injected real issues into the debate and has brought a lot of new people into the freedom movement, Doug if you really cared about Liberty you would of helped the most pro liberty candidate in your life time(name another) Ron Paul was the most pro liberty candidate in many years and what did you do doug? you did everything in your power to tear him down
Comment by Max — March 6, 2008 @ 11:18 am
I for one will still be involved in the delegate process. At the state level, we can change our party platform, and get rid of the diebold machines. In my precinct, where i canvassed for Paul, On super tuesday, 2 out of three diebold machines were replaced during the voting due to malfunction. The diebold officials assured us all votes would be counted. Excuse me for not having complete confidence in their honorable word. I will also be working on local campaigns, such as Murray Sabrin for senate, and the state congress campaign of a supporter.
Having a strong showing at the RNC national convention is also important. If we could shock the world by getting a large number of votes for Paul, it could have a Goldwater like effect on the Republican party. Alot of republicans are not happy with the neo-con leadership, and if we can mount a viable challenge, I think many will join us. It has been an uphill battle, no doubt, against all the disinfo, but I would say we are doing very well. Look at how much more successful Paul’s campiagn was this time compared to his last presidential run. And think of how many high school fans who weren’t old enough to vote he has, as well has how many democrats who didn’t change party affiliation in time. This movement is not going away. I am going to stay with the republican party, but i think we can build an alliance with the libertarians, constitution party, and independents. If Paul doesn’t win, I might consider supporting the Candidacy of Chuck Baldwin, a Paul supporter who is running for prez under the Constitution Ticket.
Comment by Dave — March 6, 2008 @ 11:21 am
Max,
Why do you think that anything I could do would help Ron Paul if I did decide to “help” him ?
You vastly overestimate my skills of persuasion. Just ask my dog when I ask him to get off the couch.
More importantly, I simply don’t agree with you that there is any value anymore in supporting Ron Paul. He has lost the nomination, as I always thought he would. It would be more productive to support candidates for other offices that have a pro-liberty agenda — unfortunately, there don’t seem to be any such persons in my neck of the woods.
Comment by Doug Mataconis — March 6, 2008 @ 11:22 am
We need to continue to expose the corruption inherent in the ideologies of the people who own the system. We need to continue to push alternative media outlets that get around the traditional mainstream process and keep waking people up..
I dream of the day when we reach critical mass — where everyone realizes they’ve been lied to about nearly everything! It could happen!!
Look at how many people are awake enough to support Ron Paul in the primaries. These are not the kind of people that show up once to vote and go home. These are the diehards! And they are spread all over the country! All 50 states, and across the world!
If things keep getting worse, which they likely will.. the establishment is going to be politically bankrupt before its all over. With every small erosion of sovereignty, with every downturn of the dollar, with every pledge to continue to finance is misguided war.. our viewpoint will become more vindicated! We might become totally broke but at least we might have the common sense to see through the BS and get real leadership back in charge.
Comment by MikeVA — March 6, 2008 @ 11:30 am
Doug “status quo” Mataconis “well he has no chance so im not gonna try” Because doing nothing is better than doing something right? Fucking douche bag, your country on its knees, in a recession on a way to a depression, fighting perpetual war with no end in sight, and what does Doug do? Not a Fucking thing!
Comment by Max — March 6, 2008 @ 11:31 am
Max,
Doug if you really cared about Liberty you would of helped the most pro liberty candidate in your life time(name another) Ron Paul was the most pro liberty candidate in many years and what did you do doug? you did everything in your power to tear him down
Doug “status quo” Mataconis “well he has no chance so im not gonna try” Because doing nothing is better than doing something right? Fucking douche bag, your country on its knees, in a recession on a way to a depression, fighting perpetual war with no end in sight, and what does Doug do? Not a Fucking thing!
Sounds like you’ve at least moved from the Denial phase of grieving into Anger. I suspect that the Bargaining phase will be taken care of by the Republican National Convention at which point you’ll be free to segue into Depression and then Acceptance. Best of luck on your recovery.
Max,
Ron Paul lost because the majority of voters disagreed with him and because he ran a campaign staffed by seeming incompetents.
He didn’t lose because of anything I, or anyone else here, did or didn’t do.
I’d be surprised if a single vote other than my own was impacted by what I wrote.
Comment by
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As a native of West Virginia, I am often compelled to defend my home - where most of my family has lived since the 1700s.
The media likes to play games. Sometimes they will work to advance one group by dispelling stereotypes, and other times they will work to reinforce them. Usually when it comes to West Virginia, they like to reinforce. They will intentionally avoid those Mountaineers who are college-educated with good dental health. They forget West Virginia has also produced people like Gen. Chuck Yeager, former Sec. of State Cyrus Vance, and other good people without titles.
As I climb down from my pulpit, thanks for sharing the clip. You’re right, it does make for the strongest argument to keep the Electoral College.
Comment by Pepe Johnson — May 16, 2008 @ 10:36 am
[…] Brad @ The Liberty Papers […]
Pingback by Below The Beltway » Blog Archive » Why Obama Lost West Virginia — May 16, 2008 @ 11:14 am
As an extremely small state (only three Representatives and therefore five electoral votes), West Virginia is of course overrepresented in the Electoral College.
Comment by KipEsquire — May 16, 2008 @ 11:17 am
And I like the electoral college instead of democracy because it means that smaller states like Kansas and West Virginia have a say in national politics and aren’t completely drowned out by population centers like New York, Florida, and the People’s Democratic Republic of California. :)
Comment by UCrawford — May 16, 2008 @ 11:32 am
That said…
Fucking idiot shitkicker…she is a poster child for all that is wrong with rednecks. Let’s see Jeff Foxworthy and Larry the Cable Guy show that side of the rural American demographic in their crappy routines.
Comment by UCrawford — May 16, 2008 @ 11:39 am
Pepe,
I don’t mean to single out West Virginia. There are ill-informed morons that cancel out votes nationwide, especially here on the left coast. They just seemed a particularly poignant example.
All,
I’m actually not for or against the electoral college, nor for or against democracy, per se. I am in favor of expanding freedom and individual rights. If democracy or the electoral college do so, then I’ll take it. If libertarian judges strike down state power (in opposition to the democratically-enacted policy) via judicial fiat, I’ll take that too. I just often point out that democracy is not a panacea in advance of liberty, and “50%+1″ does not make a government legitimate or correct in its actions.
Comment by Brad Warbiany — May 16, 2008 @ 11:41 am
the tyranny of the majority, yeah.
the only intended democratic process in this republic is supposed to be elections. personally i’m against the electoral college as they can be corrupted into a decision easier than the general population can. not that it really matters anymore, Diebold took care of real voting.
Comment by oilnwater — May 16, 2008 @ 2:11 pm
oilnwater -
A cheap shot at Diebold? C’mon, you can do better than that.
Besides, you think Diebold has got any chance against the insane gerrymandering and vote buying of the people already in power?
Comment by Quincy — May 16, 2008 @ 8:28 pm
hey i was expecting much worse than that just for bringing it up. at any rate, when you look at the company’s ownership the activities and people you mentioned go hand in hand with the machines.
man i guess i’m a lot more anti-corporate than i realized. it’s just that i see these days as the same sort of technologically stagnant era as before the automobile and even decades after, where societies and economies suffered and corporations did take serious advantage of people and put no investment in R&D or real development and instead used their resources for either simple control of populations or distributing stagnant product. and now in this era we’re facing the same sort of dark age where the Computer Age is starting to run flat and all we get are rehashed walkmans and phones, while also the energy and transportation infrastructure is in the early stages of complete crumble. the whole scene just feels of deep decay, and old tech now being refined for simple control.
completely unrelated tangent to the topic? you bet! it’s really late and the loony in me is shining %100 :P
Comment by oilnwater — May 16, 2008 @ 11:25 pm